I agree. I was merely asking for OPs self reflection. No way do I believe the manager
Finding fame
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Because you gave him a get out of jail free card! His team are near the bottom of the table and were playing one of the top teams with a scratch side. He can either say "we were well beaten by a better team!" or else "we tried really hard but a disgraceful decision robbed us. We were just getting back into it but the Ref cost us the game!" You gave him the chance to lay it on with a trowel and make it look like your fault and I'm afraid he grabbed it with both hands.Big mistake from myself and plenty to learn from, but why does the manager feel the need to lie!? Gave the pen immediately, apologised at the end of the game...but otherwise it's spot on
I had the same thing last week - although I'm no longer doing games with hundreds of spectators - and all because I don't use club assistants. I had a team moaning about an offside that "cost them the game!" A free kick into the box was partially cleared and most of the defence ran out, all apart from one defender who stayed in the area - right next to me - playing the attacker on by three yards as he collected a through ball and scored the winning goal. It doesn't matter that they were 3-0 down at half time and came back to 4-4 after I sent off an opponent for DOGSO-H just after half time, so they were unable to hold out against ten men while playing with a gale force wind and driving rain behind them. What cost them was that goal. The player who was slow out was the youngest player on the pitch and didn't have the experience to move out with the others. I didn't drop him in it, because he knew what he'd done and will learn from it. His team would have destroyed his confidence if I named him, and I certainly don't need help standing up to players so I just said one of your players was slow out and left it at that.
As I said to them, if I had a club assistant he would have been opposite me level with the second last defender so if he'd flagged for offside then I would have over-ruled him anyway because he would have been wrong.
Teams are very subjective with their recollections of incidents, and focus on apparent injustices. All you can do is to give it the way you see it.
As others have said, if you think you have genuinely made a mistake then you can change your mind, although it's best to speak to the AR to at least make it look like he's helped you out rather than you're going with player reactions. However, the write up says it was on the left side of the area so probably far side to the AR so not really credible, but it will allow you some thinking time at least. Also, the next time there's a contentious decision the players will ask you to speak to him again.
It's probably best to avoid saying things like "I was wrong" with "characters" like this. (I loved the woollen Benny hat and the "Ref, what are you on about" pose in the article.) It's better to say things like "from my position it was a definite pen!" and leave it at that. Players don't always appreciate an honest referee and you have given them ammunition to attack you with.
Try to delay a second to think about if you've actually seen what you thought you had. If there are appeals then it makes the decision credible. If there are no appeals then you may have been wrong and have a decision to make. I know we don't go with the shout - but player reactions do help us out at times! On this occasion they have done the opposite.
good post, cheers.
my issue was from my angle it looked like a pen so i gave it with very little thought
i've always had a knack of giving **** pens, i can recall several from my past that are along similar lines. next time i'll deffo be speaking to the AR whether he's asking to get involved or not but hopefully, before then i'll have learned to take my time a bit more and not rush into it in the first place!
I've had more than my fair share of bad write ups, but I'm sure we all have. As RobOda says they don't normally report when we have a good game. I seriously wouldn't worry about what teams say about us in the paper / online. If they were any good they wouldn't be at that level themselves. I bet even if this was a wrong decision you still made fewer wrong calls than the players did.
The hack job said a wrong shout for a penalty at 2-0, and "I thought we should have had another penalty at 5-0" It hardly reads like you had a **** game, despite him saying he thought you were awful. That to me says it's sour grapes and he hasn't thought out what he's saying. I really wouldn't worry about idiots like this. Focus on the positives.
For example, this happened in the first half, and you said you knew you'd got it wrong straight away. It would have been easy to have had a complete nightmare after that, but despite saying he thought you were poor he only had other other example of things he thought you got wrong, even though he was obviously looking for things to put in the article to pad it out. That shows it wasn't a bad performance despite a potentially wrong KMI. As you've said, the important thing now is to take more time to think for KMIs.
I only remember seeing one really good write up (no, it wasn't about me but anyone who knows me won't be surprised at that!) About ten years ago a lad I knew when I was L4 refereed my local team in the FA cup. It was well outside his area so would have been the only time they saw him at supply level. They absolutely raved about him in the local paper. The next year he got promoted to L3. A couple of years later he was back at L4, and hasn't gone back up since.
Our RDO got promoted from L4 to L3 and stayed there for a few years. He then got taken back to L4 for a season before going straight back to L3. He's been there for a while now and is now 3d (Football league line) I doubt he's got many good reviews either, but he's a good referee and a very good AR.
The hack job said a wrong shout for a penalty at 2-0, and "I thought we should have had another penalty at 5-0" It hardly reads like you had a **** game, despite him saying he thought you were awful. That to me says it's sour grapes and he hasn't thought out what he's saying. I really wouldn't worry about idiots like this. Focus on the positives.
For example, this happened in the first half, and you said you knew you'd got it wrong straight away. It would have been easy to have had a complete nightmare after that, but despite saying he thought you were poor he only had other other example of things he thought you got wrong, even though he was obviously looking for things to put in the article to pad it out. That shows it wasn't a bad performance despite a potentially wrong KMI. As you've said, the important thing now is to take more time to think for KMIs.
I only remember seeing one really good write up (no, it wasn't about me but anyone who knows me won't be surprised at that!) About ten years ago a lad I knew when I was L4 refereed my local team in the FA cup. It was well outside his area so would have been the only time they saw him at supply level. They absolutely raved about him in the local paper. The next year he got promoted to L3. A couple of years later he was back at L4, and hasn't gone back up since.
Our RDO got promoted from L4 to L3 and stayed there for a few years. He then got taken back to L4 for a season before going straight back to L3. He's been there for a while now and is now 3d (Football league line) I doubt he's got many good reviews either, but he's a good referee and a very good AR.
this is also ignoring the keeper throwing the ball in his net for the first 2 goals
yep, the pen i'll take on the chin, but otherwise i cant think of much else, certainly not of significance, that i got wrong
Macca
Active Member
I posted earlier in the season that I changed my 90 min decision to a corner after I gave the GK. I changed after about 3 seconds based purely on player reaction (defenders initially didn't see me indicate for GK and ran back into box to defend corner. Attackers who noticed went mental). I knew I messed it up and changed my call. Goal scored to level the game. Mental scenes.
Looking back, I have no doubt I called it wrong first and it should have been a corner. Consensus here was to just stay with the decision.
No easy call though - stick with your guns knowing you are wrong, or change your decision. I do think next time I'll stick with my original decision.
Looking back, I have no doubt I called it wrong first and it should have been a corner. Consensus here was to just stay with the decision.
No easy call though - stick with your guns knowing you are wrong, or change your decision. I do think next time I'll stick with my original decision.
yep, it can go either way for you really, esp if you're pretty much guessing and on your own. either everyone accepts your reversed decision and the game continues like nothing has happened or you lose / partially lose your control of at least one of the teams because you went off player reaction and every subsequent decision is open to dispute / dissent
Looking back at it the consensus was actually take your time. When you are starting out you will think you have to make decisions really quickly. As you get promoted you will learn to take your time before signalling. That will give you time to read player reactions if you are unsure. If both teams are appealing equally then you have to make your own decision, but often players will tell you what you should be giving if you are unsure. Most decisions are obvious, but you still don't usually need to rush them. If you get into the habit of taking your time then this will become second nature. There are very few decisions you actually need to give quickly, for example when there is a risk of collision as an offside player runs toward the goalkeeper.
I gave a talk to my local RA branch about this and had a perfect video example from the League of Ireland. A player shot from 40 yards and was well wide of the target. Everyone set up for the goal kick, including the player who hit the shot, but the referee thought he saw a deflection and gave a corner kick. The team scored the winning goal from this, and the Referee ended up sending players off for abuse. He didn't even have a good position to see any deflection. He rushed his decision, didn't read player reactions and risked losing control of the game.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Couple of things that get repeated all over at every level, players can make mistakes (Here a missed pen) but if we do its a 'disgrace' or 'unbelievable'
I'm put in mind of QPR's cup defeat to Sunderland this season which we've discussed on here - clear ONside QPR 'goal' given off, QPR manager 'can't believe it' etc BUT when addressing the THREE penalties QPR missed in the subsequent shoot out its "Well players are human"
Yes they are and they made a mistake and yes the AR is human and HE made a mistake as well.
Secondly, I've had this manager different media version of events before at a Women's Level 3 game. Manager politely asked the referee why a goal was disallowed and one his players cautioned, when it was explained to him he replied "OK thanks, players eh?!" Subsequently quoted after the game as saying he had no idea why the goal was disallowed and his player cautioned!
And for bit of light amusement you can't beat this manager's best quote "On paper it looks we were battered and we probably were"
I'm put in mind of QPR's cup defeat to Sunderland this season which we've discussed on here - clear ONside QPR 'goal' given off, QPR manager 'can't believe it' etc BUT when addressing the THREE penalties QPR missed in the subsequent shoot out its "Well players are human"
Yes they are and they made a mistake and yes the AR is human and HE made a mistake as well.
Secondly, I've had this manager different media version of events before at a Women's Level 3 game. Manager politely asked the referee why a goal was disallowed and one his players cautioned, when it was explained to him he replied "OK thanks, players eh?!" Subsequently quoted after the game as saying he had no idea why the goal was disallowed and his player cautioned!
And for bit of light amusement you can't beat this manager's best quote "On paper it looks we were battered and we probably were"
JBeil
Active Member
I think that was the one I was with you at - was this the one which was saved anyway?
Anubis
RefChat Addict
Thats my fav example of nothing to be gained by being the only person to be right.
Have posted it over and over again, and yet you still get one going, 'if its a corner, am giving a corner"
your ideal game needs maturity, awareness, looking at big pictures, and that worn out phrase, no surprises. It sounds boring but if you overall sinply award what appears to be the correct call, you will stroll through games.
SpecsSaver66
Active Member
You say 'I don't want a Level 7 interfering.' This sounds extremely arrogant IMHO, as refereeing or running a line is hardly rocket science.
But here's the problem: by saying that, you're implying you think there is no way the L7 on the line could be wrong, but you're saying that while he is in the process of wanting to flag for a decision that he believes the L4/L5 in the middle has got wrong.
That's a logical paradox - either we determine that both officials must be right, in which case it is simultaneously an offence AND not an offence, which is impossible. Or we accept the possibility that one of the officials must be wrong and the other is right, but we don't know which way round that is.
And in that case, you have an official in the middle who is both more senior and more involved in the management of the game vs an official on the side who is junior and for who is less important for the strength of the team to be able to project match control. Where that conflict exists, it is always more beneficial for the team to support the authority of the referee in the middle by working on the assumption that they are right and the AR is wrong.
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SpecsSaver66
Active Member
If the referee has no trust in his Assistants then what is the point of them being there? You might as well just give a flag to each team and have one of their officials doing 'ins and outs' as I do at my level. The ref will always make the final decision but he/she is supposed to be part of a team and their input should be respected even if that input is not ultimately used. It's this hierarchy stuff that made me never consider going through any levels as I'd take experience before exams in the case of match officiating.
In the majority of cases, the man in the middle is the more experienced official for that level of football.
Of course the referee has trust in his assistants - for things where they are better positioned, more credible or where the referee is otherwise unsure. That's the point of them, to give the refereeing team more coverage of the pitch and at a range of different angles.
But what we're talking about here is a situation where the referee is both expected to and feels like he is capable of making a decision on his own. And where the assistant is no more likely to be correct than the referee in the middle.
You ask why the referee wouldn't trust his assistants, I'd respond by asking why he should be expected to trust his assistants (who could well be two random people he's never met before) over the evidence of his own eyes? From the referees perspective, he's seen an incident clearly, he's given the correct decision and he's then got an AR flagging him over to disagree. Why would you go with that? And a good assistant will see that context, realise that by flagging all they are doing is undermining their referee for no real reason, and will keep the flag down. Credibility matters, and if the decision is most credibly the referees to give, they should get first bite. If they're unsure, that's when AR's can help.
You'll find this at the level where you have CAR's too. No matter how good, thorough and clear you make your pre-match instructions, at some point a CAR will try and flag for a dodgy penalty, or an offside when they're miles behind play and aren't credible. You'll find yourself with the choice of believing the evidence of your own eyes and undermining the AR's and his team's confidence in you, or going with them and making a decision you know is probably wrong. Guarantee you'll pick option A a vast majority of the time.
What does that even mean?
The CR is usually the more experience and/or one of the most promising up and coming referees of that tier group, so I don't really understand your point unless you're trying to argue that we should be doffing our caps to the 78 year old senior on his way down that is still using the old drop ball laws cos experience > exams?
SpecsSaver66
Active Member
It means that the situation described sounded to me like arrogance and my experience is that I found referees who were on this hierarchial pathway quite arrogant in general. I admit that maybe I havent met the better or more typical referee who may be very willing to offer advice to others but this is just my experience. I found it somewhat similar in the coaching pathways too. Coaches attached to football clubs again tended to be more aloof and less sharing towards recreational coaches who just wanted to expand their knowledge to pass their knowledge on to their players. Like I say,I can only comment on personal experience and my experiences may be untypical.