A&H

FA Cup - MNC vs MNU

The raising of the arm is not justifiable by the player's movement, I think it's a penalty. Albeit it rather unfortunate for Grealish.

I liked how Ally McCoist mentioned that the penalty was awarded as per the LOTG, and not how Lee Dixon described it - a decision given by someone that doesn't watch or play football, yet again ignorant and foolish commentary from him.

Paul Tierney pulling out the cards at the right time, felt he was becoming slightly complacent since the Bernardo Silva tackle.
 
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Handball for me. Not really sure why your arms would be in that position when jumping. Not saying you should jump like a pencil, but having them up there is ridiculous.

One thing I think they missed is the Casemiro ‘orange’ challenge. Probably just not quite enough in it to class as C&O though
 
We expect HB to be given for this, rightly or wrongly (wrongly IMO)
Let's get one thing straight tho, whilst Grealish doesn't have too many atoms in that brain of his, not a single neuron in that little mind of his was contemplating Handball. No intent, no nothing. The movement is therefore 100% natural because it happened naturally without any brain involvement whatsoever. These are Acts of God and the very last thing the player wants to happen FACT. Players will have to learn to unnaturally avoid handball like this, just as they do running about like penguins half the time

Good that the game wasn't decided on a 'chance' incident. How the Hell De Gea won the Golden Glove is beyond this Big Cat
 
Big Cat said:
We expect that HB to be given, rightly or wrongly (wrongly IMO)
Let's get one thing straight tho, whilst Grealish doesn't have too many atoms in that brain of his, not a single neuron in that little mind of his was contemplating Handball. No intent, no nothing. The movement is therefore 100% natural because it happened naturally without any brain involvement whatsoever. These are Acts of God and the very last thing the player wants to happen without a single neurotransmitter crossing any synapse FACT
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100% agree that he hasn’t deliberately handled it, but very few players do. Laws no longer state that handball needs to be deliberate, so there can’t really be any other outcome than handball.

In real-time I didn’t see it. But once you see the replay, it’s fairly straightforward imo. Good spot by Coote…. And I’m no fan of Coote!
 
Runner-Ref said:
Laws no longer state that handball needs to be deliberate
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It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball

I get what you mean anyway. The natural position thing has taken over. And 'natural position' has next to nothing to do with 'natural position', the way it's refereed. I've said it a zillion times, the Law was much clearer and better 7 years ago when i started out. Although regionally, we (UK) tried to cling on to that wording at the time, 'Rest of the World' expectation for HB ultimately won the day and now it's more broken than it was (even though it's probably easier to Referee, because all we need to do is see the ball strike a high arm, regardless of anything else)
My comments will drive @Russell Jones mad!

Russell, you were keen on the new wording and thought it could work, but I think the Pro Refs have let us down and have spoiled the idea. And it's they who set the expectation regardless of what's in the book

I'm giving today's HB, cos that's the expectation and it's easy for the Ref.... but it's wrong in Law and unfair because it's accidental
 
Big Cat said:
It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball

I get what you mean anyway. The natural position thing has taken over. And 'natural position' has next to nothing to do with 'natural position', the way it's refereed. I've said it a zillion times, the Law was much clearer and better 7 years ago when i started out. Although regionally, we (UK) tried to cling on to that wording at the time, 'Rest of the World' expectation for HB ultimately won the day and now it's more broken than it was (even though it's probably easier to Referee, because all we need to do is see the ball strike a high arm, regardless of anything else
My comments will drive @Russell Jones mad!
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Yeah, so law states that deliberate handball is an offence. But it also doesn’t need to be deliberate to be an offence

It is an offence if a player:
• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

For me; todays penalty is a prime example of point 2
 
Runner-Ref said:
Yeah, so law states that deliberate handball is an offence. But it also doesn’t need to be deliberate to be an offence

It is an offence if a player:
• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised

For me; todays penalty is a prime example of point 2
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Well anyway, it's a PK regardless of what we think and if we like it or not. Fairness counts for nowt
 
Runner-Ref said:
Handball for me. Not really sure why your arms would be in that position when jumping. Not saying you should jump like a pencil, but having them up there is ridiculous.

One thing I think they missed is the Casemiro ‘orange’ challenge. Probably just not quite enough in it to class as C&O though
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Well, it was a C&O error, as it should have been a FK the other way. Presumably VAR can't intervene if it's not possibly SFP, but it quite possibly was.
 
bloovee said:
Well, it was a C&O error, as it should have been a FK the other way. Presumably VAR can't intervene if it's not possibly SFP, but it quite possibly was.
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A C&O that falls outside the jurisdiction of VAR, yes.
 
The handball law may or may not be clear, but the problem is that the hazard from taking a subjective view of "unnatural position" is out of proportion to the action. It's a technical / accidental offence that is punished by giving an obvious goal scoring opportunity when the action didn't prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity.
 
That’s arguably debating the validity of penalties as a punishment as a whole. You make your body unnaturally larger within the penalty area, you run the risk of having a penalty go against you.

If you start adding clauses of ‘oh it wasn’t an OGSO so it’ll be a DFK 10 yard from goal’, then the current subjectivity based problems will only worsen tenfold.
 
bloovee said:
The handball law may or may not be clear, but the problem is that the hazard from taking a subjective view of "unnatural position" is out of proportion to the action. It's a technical / accidental offence that is punished by giving an obvious goal scoring opportunity when the action didn't prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity.
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A bit like a subjectively careless challenge for the ball in a (relatively) unthreatening part of the penalty area? :)
 
george.g said:
That’s arguably debating the validity of penalties as a punishment as a whole. You make your body unnaturally larger within the penalty area, you run the risk of having a penalty go against you.

If you start adding clauses of ‘oh it wasn’t an OGSO so it’ll be a DFK 10 yard from goal’, then the current subjectivity based problems will only worsen tenfold.
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Indeed, but that's always been a hazard for deliberate actions (and for decades for careless challenges). Now we've got penalties for a subjective decision as to what is an "unnatural" arm position (and penalties not given for the ball hitting an outstretched arm "in a congested area"). I'm not sure if it would be ten times worse to make unintentional handball an IDFK offence rather than potentially deciding a cup final.
 
bloovee said:
Well, it was a C&O error, as it should have been a FK the other way. Presumably VAR can't intervene if it's not possibly SFP, but it quite possibly was.
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Correct. VAR would only get involved if they thought SFP. This was very much borderline for whether it should be SFP.

If I’m remembering the incident correctly; there’s a few players in Tierneys way. So I’m not convinced he actually sees what happens. Not sure if he takes an educated guess or 4th tells him to give Utd FK
 
Isn't there a case for the VAR to say "that's a C&O error, it's a FK the other way, and it's a potential SFP so you should look at it"? And if the referee looks at it, and decides it's not SFP, but should have been a FK the other way and a YC, he would have to stick to his original decision?

You can see why "what football expects" and the VAR protocol are not on the same planet.
 
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bloovee said:
bloovee said:
Isn't there a case for the VAR to say "that's a C&O error, it's a FK the other way, and it's a potential SFP so you should look at it"? And if the r3eferee looks at it, and decides it's not SFP, but should have been a FK the other way and a YC, he would have to stick to his original decision?

You can see why "what football expects" and the VAR protocol are not on the same planet.
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VAR could intervene if they felt SFP had been missed, or there was a high chance of it. But they can’t intervene to say you’ve given the free-kick the wrong way

Had he got the ref over as he felt he had missed SFP, I think ref either has to go red or go with his initial decision. He can’t change the outcome of which way the FK goes or give yellow (I think!)
 
Runner-Ref said:
VAR could intervene if they felt SFP had been missed, or there was a high chance of it. But they can’t intervene to say you’ve given the free-kick the wrong way

Had he got the ref over as he felt he had missed SFP, I think ref either has to go red or go with his initial decision. He can’t change the outcome of which way the FK goes or give yellow (I think!)
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He absolutely can. If he'd been called over and thought, well, Casemiro's being reckless here, then the result would have been a City free kick and a Casemiro yellow. It would have resulted in either Tierney or the VAR receiving a lower grade as it can't both be C&O SFP and just a yellow on second viewing. Interesting to see which side Webb would lean, as I'm not too opposed to the red being produced here
 
The handball law is a law that optimises football and the state the game has and is in at the moment.

A chance for a load of pundits/ fans and other people who have no idea on the laws of the game to say ‘well that was handball’ and not be able to use the laws of the game to back it up as they don’t even know where to find them.

There seems to be a huge disparity between referees and most other people on the game, coaches, ex players, current players, parents etc .. until that changes there are always going to be problems.
 
Jorik0907 said:
He absolutely can. If he'd been called over and thought, well, Casemiro's being reckless here, then the result would have been a City free kick and a Casemiro yellow. It would have resulted in either Tierney or the VAR receiving a lower grade as it can't both be C&O SFP and just a yellow on second viewing. Interesting to see which side Webb would lean, as I'm not too opposed to the red being produced here
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You could well be right here. My understanding of VAR and its protocols probably isn’t the best.

Do you have the guidance that would back up that he could give yellow?
 
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