A&H

Eastleigh v Weymouth - Red Card

es1 said:
Yes absolutely

Because if you don't, next week it'll be more forceful
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I think it's just one of those where if the same player does similar again by all means send him off but as I said, producing a red here does not really help anyone unless it was more obvious aggression where there can't be any complaints. In fairness to the ref maybe what the player also said may of been a contributing factor but for casual fans, you have referees giving yellow cards for arms/elbows smacking into a players face yet slight contact like this on a referee is a red card. It's just open to mockery unfortunately.

Also we talk about how game management is important and a red card like this could of lead to more Ill discipline from the Eastleigh players which would of been avoided if there was no red card.

Not saying the referee is wrong to produce a red as the LOTG backs him up but in certain situations, it could lead to more trouble than its worth.
 
The Referee Store
This is where I'd like IFAB to add in a specific send off offence for something like 'deliberate contact with a match official'

Would completely nail on a send off for players knocking cards out of the refs hand, grabbing them to demonstrate a hold or this type of thing in the clip here.

I absolutely feel it's a red, but understand why the average Joe Public are scratching their heads.
 
Big Cat said:
I doubt I'd have sent him off. There's no context to the clip so hard to say. But I might not even have noticed it or I probably would've thought of it as trifling. Dunno without context
Dissent by action?
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But there is enough context in the clip for it. He is clearly angry with the foul given and therefore with the referee (even if there was nothing before that). He throws his arms up in the air to protest then he is having a verbal go at him on his way. Referee puts his arm up to calm him but he slaps it away.
I'd say he is lucky to only get 3 weeks.
 
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This would be much better reported as very serious OFFINABUS, in my view. Gets around the semantic definitional argument as to what fits VC. If this was player on player, with the ball dead (such that any force was excessive) we would not send off.

It seems to me this is one of the things that the change to OFFINABUS was meant to cover.

Other than that, clear red.
 
Anubis said:
its not violent conduct though, unless we invent our own definition of violent conduct
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You seem to be ignoring the plain and straightforward fact that (according to every report on this that I've read) the player was given a three match ban "for violent conduct."

If you don't agree that this is punishable as violent conduct then fine, that's your opinion but purely as a matter of recorded fact and footballing law as practised by the FA's disciplinary bodies (and unless you think the FA is wholly incompetent and doesn't know how to apply the laws of the game when it comes to disciplinary matters) then this does indeed fall within the allowable definition of violent conduct.
 
Max2 said:
Nooooo?! Him?!

FWIW I was at the game and sat in the stand. You heard an audible slap at the time.
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The debate is whether or not violent conduct occurs

not, whether a red card should be issued

there is a huge difference in the two.

Our bible tells us violent conduct is excessive force or brutality. Nowhere in the clip is there either. Regardless of what noises may or may not have been heard at the time.

This incident would be best suited to pre law update, where vc comprised of, strking or attempting to strike.
We now have a lotg act of violence

however, like Beckhams boot flick in the WC, the criteria has now changed and his flick would today not be a red card, due to the lack of excessive force and brutality.

a few times in this thread, its been asked, player to player, what are we doing?

the good book, ( despite our inner feelings of angst) does not differentiate between player, official etc). In the absence of this, we invent our own. When we invent our own, we are now alienating ourselves from the very laws iwith which we are entrusted.

we can hide behind spirit of the game, football expects, all we want but as we frequently discover, those phrases apply when no definative answer prevails.

No arguement here, this is simply not an act of violence as defined by the laws we uphold.

that said, its still a red card!
 
Peter Grove said:
You seem to be ignoring the plain and straightforward fact that (according to every report on this that I've read) the player was given a three match ban "for violent conduct."

If you don't agree that this is punishable as violent conduct then fine, that's your opinion but purely as a matter of recorded fact and footballing law as practised by the FA's disciplinary bodies (and unless you think the FA is wholly incompetent and doesn't know how to apply the laws of the game when it comes to disciplinary matters) then this does indeed fall within the allowable definition of violent
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the same FA would not class this as violent , player on player.

Which can only mean they have viewed this as violent due to the persons involved.

which is entirely the panels perogative, and not a lotg issue.

two very different things.
 
Anubis said:
the same FA would not class this as violent , player on player.

Which can only mean they have viewed this as violent due to the persons involved.

which is entirely the panels perogative, and not a lotg issue.

two very different things.
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You’re totally ignoring what everyone is saying for the sake of argument here. Violent conduct is defined as ‘excessive Force’ so of course there js a different threshold for player on player to player on referee, as any kind of force is excessive because it is not acceptable. We see players pushing each other all the time and get bookings but again, if that’s a referee it’s a red. You seem to agree with this by saying ‘I would show a red’ but then argue that it’s not violent, so what are you showing a red for?
 
If I recall Di Maria was sent off for possibly much less than this, grabbing Oliver's shirt so we have precedent that touching a match official in anything less than friendly way is not acceptable.
I can't have the any amount of force is excessive argument again, I just don't buy it.
However, facts of the case here are that he has struck the referee, and supported in law or not he is walking and I would expect the authorities, as they have done, to uphold.

Is it violent? If it is, its the most watered down, diluted act of violence and player to player, I don't even think we do anything at all. I'm stretched to apply the laws of the game as written, but also no brainer red card offence.
 
QuaverRef said:
You’re totally ignoring what everyone is saying for the sake of argument here. Violent conduct is defined as ‘excessive Force’ so of course there js a different threshold for player on player to player on referee, as any kind of force is excessive because it is not acceptable. We see players pushing each other all the time and get bookings but again, if that’s a referee it’s a red. You seem to agree with this by saying ‘I would show a red’ but then argue that it’s not violent, so what are you showing a red for?
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as per James above.

its the whole point of the debate, what is the red for?

Am putting him off for violent conduct, even although its not violent conduct. A total contradction but there we go

felt more force in the pre or post match handshakes.

and have been present at games where Collina himself has sunk his hands into players chests with excessive force, forcing them backwards ( disguised to us as, fantastic presence).
 
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JamesL said:
If I recall Di Maria was sent off for possibly much less than this, grabbing Oliver's shirt so we have precedent that touching a match official in anything less than friendly way is not acceptable.
I can't have the any amount of force is excessive argument again, I just don't buy it.
However, facts of the case here are that he has struck the referee, and supported in law or not he is walking and I would expect the authorities, as they have done, to uphold.

Is it violent? If it is, its the most watered down, diluted act of violence and player to player, I don't even think we do anything at all. I'm stretched to apply the laws of the game as written, but also no brainer red card offence.
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Yeah, pretty much this. I've disagreed with the "any contact in [x context] is excessive so we can justify VC for a minimal tap" argument before, because it's nonsense, so it would be hypocritical of me to support VC here! A lower threshold for what qualifies as violence against a referee, sure - but this doesn't even meet that level for me.

As @Redster suggests, I'm actually much happier classing this under "OFFINABUS by action" - even aside from the fact I'm sure his words qualify alone, the act of slapping his hand away could certainly qualify as either an abusive or insulting action, given that it's fundamentally an extreme way of showing displeasure with the decision.
 
Just to spice this chat up even more. I'd put my house on this NOT being a red in the prem.

Jesus grabbed the female lino last season due to offside (I think) and it was just passed off as a joke.
 
Ryanj91 said:
Just to spice this chat up even more. I'd put my house on this NOT being a red in the prem.

Jesus grabbed the female lino last season due to offside (I think) and it was just passed off as a joke.
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twas aguero...not that it changes the discussion
 
JamesL said:
If I recall Di Maria was sent off for possibly much less than this, grabbing Oliver's shirt so we have precedent that touching a match official in anything less than friendly way is not acceptable.
I can't have the any amount of force is excessive argument again, I just don't buy it.
However, facts of the case here are that he has struck the referee, and supported in law or not he is walking and I would expect the authorities, as they have done, to uphold.

Is it violent? If it is, its the most watered down, diluted act of violence and player to player, I don't even think we do anything at all. I'm stretched to apply the laws of the game as written, but also no brainer red card offence.
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Just to clarify, in that situation Oliver gave two yellow cards in quick succession, it was not a straight RC. Also, I would argue, that the action by Di Maria was more forceful and in the back of Oliver, which caught him by surprise. I think in the PL the situation discussed would not be a RC.
Link to Di Marias two YC's:
 
Interesting debate, think I would go red here.

Funny how times change, watched a "Big Match Revisited" from 1975 recently where a player (Old '1st Division') literally stops the referee from running by grabbing both his shoulders to argue about a no foul call - punishment?.... a jolly good talking to! :eek:
 
One question to pose to those (not necessarily on here but in the wider world) is "At what point would you deem a player making contact with match official to be unacceptable?"
 
Justylove said:
One question to pose to those (not necessarily on here but in the wider world) is "At what point would you deem a player making contact with match official to be unacceptable?"
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Your reference to the "wider world" is interesting, because I know if a lot of US sports, even incidental and accidental contact with an official can be grounds for being kicked out. Baseball has a zero-tolerance policy for any contact, and even in the NFL when officials do have reasons to run in and get involved, contact can still be cause for disqualification. I'm sure I've seen a player kicked out for accidentally knocking a referee's hat off, but can't find it right now. However:

Here's a player being kicked out because they pushed away an official who was on top of them: here
Another who threw a towel near an official in dissent and was immediately thrown out: here
And finally, a player being kicked out because a ref leant into him (shades of the French ref who tried to kick a player then red carded them a few years ago!) here
 
Justylove said:
One question to pose to those (not necessarily on here but in the wider world) is "At what point would you deem a player making contact with match official to be unacceptable?"
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For me there are different things to consider. In Eastleigh vs. Weymouth the referee approaches (trying to stop him to speak) a fired up player and there is a reaction . For me he is just putting the arm of the referee to the side, not a strike. It's almost as if the referee 'initiates' the contact by standing in the way. Other times, when the referee is stationary and the player walks up to him and confronts him (bumps into him) I think is worse and should be a straight RC. I remeber Vidal vs. Taylor not long ago: (Just a SYC not a straight RC)
 
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