Eastleigh v Weymouth - Red Card

[Big Cat]

For me there are different things to consider. In Eastleigh vs. Weymouth the referee approaches (trying to stop him to speak) a fired up player and there is a reaction . For me he is just putting the arm of the referee to the side, not a strike. It's almost as if the referee 'initiates' the contact by standing in the way. Other times, when the referee is stationary and the player walks up to him and confronts him (bumps into him) I think is worse and should be a straight RC. I remeber Vidal vs. Taylor not long ago: (Just a SYC not a straight RC)

Agreed. The clip you posted is far far worse BTW because there's genuine threat involved there. Whereas my 8 year old girl snaps back at me worse than in the OP. Like I say, we don't know the context of the OP

 

[Justylove]

For me there are different things to consider. In Eastleigh vs. Weymouth the referee approaches (trying to stop him to speak) a fired up player and there is a reaction . For me he is just putting the arm of the referee to the side, not a strike. It's almost as if the referee 'initiates' the contact by standing in the way. Other times, when the referee is stationary and the player walks up to him and confronts him (bumps into him) I think is worse and should be a straight RC. I remeber Vidal vs. Taylor not long ago: (Just a SYC not a straight RC)

So you answered my question with the fact it's not a strike makes it ok for a player to initiate contact with a match official.

Where do you then stand on a player knocking or grabbing a card out of the referees hand when they are trying to issue a sanction?

 

[Anubis]

So you answered my question with the fact it's not a strike makes it ok for a player to initiate contact with a match official.

Where do you then stand on a player knocking or grabbing a card out of the referees hand when they are trying to issue a sanction?

As ever it would vary by association but last time I saw that happen, the player was charged with ' misconduct of a significantly serious nature"

he was fined £2500, no further ban though added on to his double yellow.


Its the second time I ever seen it in the pro game, once on tv, and one I saw from the terraces.
I have never seen or encountered it at grass roots in over 30 years so, again, unless its a big thing elsewhere....

 

[ARF]

For anyone who doesn't think this is a red card - at Step 5 and below this is what a player would be looking at:

OFFENCES AGAINST MATCH OFFICIALS
Categories of Offence
96 The three categories of offence against Match Officials are as follows:
[...]
96.2 Physical contact or attempted physical contact: physical actions (or attempted actions) that are
unlikely to cause injury to the Match Official but are nevertheless confrontational, examples include
but are not limited to: pushing the Match Official or pulling the Match Official (or their clothing or
equipment);
[...]
Physical contact or attempted physical contact:
101.4 suspension from all football activities for a period of between 112 days and 2 years. The recommended
entry point, prior to considering any mitigating or aggravating factors is 182 days.
101.5 a fine of up to £150, with a mandatory minimum fine of £75.
101.6 an order that the Participant completes an education programme before the time-based suspension
is served or within 28 days of the Disciplinary Commission’s decision, whichever is the later.

 

[Ben448844]

Obviously it looks to be a red. But let's say there's very little contact but there's a bit in a frustrated and petulant way, something which in no way is violent etc but it's contact with an official. Sin bin for dissent by action plausible?

 

[Justylove]

Obviously it looks to be a red. But let's say there's very little contact but there's a bit in a frustrated and petulant way, something which in no way is violent etc but it's contact with an official. Sin bin for dissent by action plausible?

This is National League - so Sin Bins not in operation.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Obviously it looks to be a red. But let's say there's very little contact but there's a bit in a frustrated and petulant way, something which in no way is violent etc but it's contact with an official. Sin bin for dissent by action plausible?

No sin bin at that level, Ben

 

[one]

For me any kind of physical contact in anger or in protest is a send off. I go as far as saying any kind of physical intimidation like squaring up should be a send off as well even if there is no contact.

Otherwise we should pretty much throw out all respect campaigns. Back up what you say and ask for. No point having respect campaigns but not backing them up. Football culture in terms of attitude towards referees has to change.

 

[Ben448844]

No sin bin at that level, Ben

I was aware of that tbf. I'm referring to an imaginary incident based on this one but with less contact/force. Would a sin bin for dissent by action be suitable? Take the incident on the video which I think we mainly agree is definitely a red. If there's a bit less "force", a frustrated tap for want of a better phrase (not an easy thing to describe on here), could we go sin bin in our games? I can argue either way in my own head

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I was aware of that tbf. I'm referring to an imaginary incident based on this one but with less contact/force. Would a sin bin for dissent by action be suitable? Take the incident on the video which I think we mainly agree is definitely a red. If there's a bit less "force", a frustrated tap for want of a better phrase (not an easy thing to describe on here), could we go sin bin in our games? I can argue either way in my own head

You could quote "dissent by action" and sin bin where that option is available . . .

 

[Justylove]

I was aware of that tbf. I'm referring to an imaginary incident based on this one but with less contact/force. Would a sin bin for dissent by action be suitable? Take the incident on the video which I think we mainly agree is definitely a red. If there's a bit less "force", a frustrated tap for want of a better phrase (not an easy thing to describe on here), could we go sin bin in our games? I can argue either way in my own head

When I get something like this, I always do my Sherlock Holmes impression and whittle down the options.
So there are 7 red card offences - let's discard SFP, Spitting and the 2 Dogso's.
Let's also discard a second caution for the time being.
That leaves OFFINABUS or VC.

You could argue that it's a red for OFFINABUS as that type of petulant action could be offensive or insulting to a match official - likewise you could say that a ref who sends off for that is over reacting.

Likewise you can argue that in VC terms, any deliberate, uninvited contact towards a match official is classed as Excessive Force and send off - equally you could argue that the threshold for Excessive Force is not met and therefore cannot send off.

Likewise for Cautions -whittling it down you've got dissent as an option as it's instigated by a public disagreement on a decision which at lower levels of the game is a sin bin, or you could caution under the catch-all 'showing a lack of respect for the game'

Obviously, depending on whether the player has previously been cautioned or not you might want to choose your caution code accordingly.

However - the issue that this whole incident has brought up is the ambiguity in the LOTG, specifically around VC where match officials are lumped in with opposing players. An added line that states "Any deliberate, uninvited contact with a match official may be considered violent conduct, regardless of the level of force used" means that it's there clearly that if you put your hands on the ref, do not complain when you are sent off.

As others have said - in other sports offences against officials are treated much more harshly by the on field officials and lead to instant ejection from the game.

 

[bloovee]

Against the grain here, but I thought the player had in the end accepted the decision and was attempting a "low five" with the ref rather than trying to "slap" the referee.

 

[Justylove]

Eastleigh manager got sent off today in their game v Halifax as well....

 

[RefIADad]

You’re totally ignoring what everyone is saying for the sake of argument here. Violent conduct is defined as ‘excessive Force’ so of course there js a different threshold for player on player to player on referee, as any kind of force is excessive because it is not acceptable. We see players pushing each other all the time and get bookings but again, if that’s a referee it’s a red. You seem to agree with this by saying ‘I would show a red’ but then argue that it’s not violent, so what are you showing a red for?

It's really pretty simple here.

Any deliberate contact with a match official is "excessive force", and therefore punishable as a send off for violent conduct.

I get the individual doing the argument likes to rile people up, so I would take anything said there with a grain of salt if I didn't have the poster on ignore. But something like this is clearly excessive force against a match referee.

Several years ago in the US, we had a prominent national team player sent off for taking the referee's notebook and ripping it up in front of him. I don't think the official reason for the send off was ever publicized, but there was very little dispute that the player deserved a send off. He ultimately received a six-match suspension from both league and cup games (combined, not separately).