A&H

Eastleigh v Weymouth - Red Card

The Referee Store
Might look soft, but it is unacceptable. Poor discipline by the player.

Really impressed that the FA have upheld the charge.
 
I don't expect anything but red. It was more than a touch. It a clear strike. Doesn't matter if it is to the hand.

Pleased that the ref hasn't bottled it. Some referees would bottle this under "what the game expects"
 
There is nothing saying you cannot touch an official, old chestnut.

That aside, this is an interesting clip as, on one hand, in nobodys planet, is that violent conduct, Vc equals brutality, and, that action may be a lot of things but its not brutalty

It is however an unnacceptable act, certainly not appreciated by the referee,

so, I understand the red, based entirely on that clip, am issuing a red too ( for v/c), even though it does not fit the criteria for brutality.

Would we send off for this player to player?
or envoke our unwritten holy status of, we are unique?

easy one for FA to uphold, a nobody, make a good example of him.

so to clear up, that is not violent conduct but am sendimg him off for violent conduct.
 
Anubis said:
There is nothing saying you cannot touch an official, old chestnut.

That aside, this is an interesting clip as, on one hand, in nobodys planet, is that violent conduct, Vc equals brutality, and, that action may be a lot of things but its not brutalty

It is however an unnacceptable act, certainly not appreciated by the referee,

so, I understand the red, based entirely on that clip, am issuing a red too ( for v/c), even though it does not fit the criteria for brutality.

Would we send off for this player to player?
or envoke our unwritten holy status of, we are unique?

easy one for FA to uphold, a nobody, make a good example of him.

so to clear up, that is not violent conduct but am sendimg him off for violent conduct.
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The quote below is helpful (have made the words bold that stand out to me).


Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

My argument is that any contact equates to excessive force, as there should not be any whatsoever. However, I agree that something in writing should be written that any contact with an official or extension of them (e.g. cards etc.) equates to VC.
 
Anubis said:
so to clear up, that is not violent conduct but am sendimg him off for violent conduct.
Click to expand...

I was in the same boat as you. You don’t want it to be VC but what else does it come under?

Can OFFINABUS be an action/gesture or does it have to be language?

For example, if a player threatens to harm/kill another player it’s an easy RC. However, if he doesn’t say anything but uses the ‘cut throat’ gesture towards an opponent is there nothing we can do under the laws?
 
SurreyWolves said:
The quote below is helpful (have made the words bold that stand out to me).


Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

My argument is that any contact equates to excessive force, as there should not be any whatsoever. However, I agree that something in writing should be written that any contact with an official or extension of them (e.g. cards etc.) equates to VC.
Click to expand...

i totally get that, and, again I want him off and am putting him off

any contact equals excessive force though does not wash, It might be our wish as referee that we receive no contact, but, then the lotg would say, contact, no contact, instead of, excessive contact.

not trying to be wide here but your, any contact, equals excessive falls flat for those genuine hi fives, pats on shoulder etc, they then fall into your, any contact, box and would need be a red.
 
Robbo_6 said:
I was in the same boat as you. You don’t want it to be VC but what else does it come under?

Can OFFINABUS be an action/gesture or does it have to be language?

For example, if a player threatens to harm/kill another player it’s an easy RC. However, if he doesn’t say anything but uses the ‘cut throat’ gesture towards an opponent is there nothing we can do under the laws?
Click to expand...

cut throat comes under, offensive etc, actions , gestures.
 
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Anubis said:
i totally get that, and, again I want him off and am putting him off

any contact equals excessive force though does not wash, It might be our wish as referee that we receive no contact, but, then the lotg would say, contact, no contact, instead of, excessive contact.

not trying to be wide here but your, any contact, equals excessive falls flat for those genuine hi fives, pats on shoulder etc, they then fall into your, any contact, box and would need be a red.
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You're arguing just to argue. No one said anything about hi fives, shaking hands, or accidental contact. We're talking about intentional contact and there was force. This just isn't hard.
 
socal lurker said:
You're arguing just to argue. No one said anything about hi fives, shaking hands, or accidental contact. We're talking about intentional contact and there was force. This just isn't hard.
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someone said ' any contact is excessive'

a pat on shoulder in passing, falls into any contact

As ever each to own but, by your own words you are now stuck.

excessive force takes you into violent conduct
force, does not.

any arguement you have with that can be directed to ifab, their book, their words,


to clarify, am glad the ref went red, am going red, it just however is not violent.

see more violence in an u11 warm up between own team than that. We get caught up in the context, the horror that its happened. The audacity that a player has made contact with us. That still does not elevate a non violent act to violent
 
Anubis said:
to clarify, am glad the ref went red, am going red, it just however is not violent.
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Whatever the dictionary may say about the word "violent," the simple fact remains that hitting the referee as described is the send off offense of violent conduct as defined in the LOTG. It is excessive force because no force may be exerted against a referee. If you really think that isn't what IFAB expects, I really don't know what to say and hope you never sit on an appeal panel.

I won't be responding further.
 
socal lurker said:
Whatever the dictionary may say about the word "violent," the simple fact remains that hitting the referee as described is the send off offense of violent conduct as defined in the LOTG. It is excessive force because no force may be exerted against a referee. If you really think that isn't what IFAB expects, I really don't know what to say and hope you never sit on an appeal panel.

I won't be responding further.
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Good how you overlook the part where am saying it is a red on the day, if happens to me as referee am issuing a red.

its not violent conduct though, unless we invent our own definition of violent conduct.

I really have no interest in whether you reply or not
 
Anubis said:
someone said ' any contact is excessive'

a pat on shoulder in passing, falls into any contact

As ever each to own but, by your own words you are now stuck.

excessive force takes you into violent conduct
force, does not.

any arguement you have with that can be directed to ifab, their book, their words,


to clarify, am glad the ref went red, am going red, it just however is not violent.

see more violence in an u11 warm up between own team than that. We get caught up in the context, the horror that its happened. The audacity that a player has made contact with us. That still does not elevate a non violent act to violent
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Afraid I disagree with you here. I understand where you are coming from, and think you’re saying that you agree that the player should be sent off.

Excessive means (in its literal definition), “more than necessary”. One might argue that the slap is more than a nudge, and I would be inclined to go with that point of opinion. In terms of the “brutality” side of the descriptor, it definitely doesn’t fit that!

The player makes no attempt to apologise for the contact and it is clear that it is not done accidentally, in jest or in a friendly or compassionate manner. The manner in which he does that is in a “slap” motion, albeit “soft”, I think the sell is that it wasn’t necessary contact/force. We also don’t know if something was said as he made contact; this could add further context.

That being said, I do think it would be great for referees if the IFAB put some strong measures in the LOTG regarding protecting the referees, and I am pleased, especially as a lower league referee, that other referees are showing the red, as you say you would, also.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Anubis said:
There is nothing saying you cannot touch an official, old chestnut.

That aside, this is an interesting clip as, on one hand, in nobodys planet, is that violent conduct, Vc equals brutality, and, that action may be a lot of things but its not brutalty

It is however an unnacceptable act, certainly not appreciated by the referee,

so, I understand the red, based entirely on that clip, am issuing a red too ( for v/c), even though it does not fit the criteria for brutality.

Would we send off for this player to player?
or envoke our unwritten holy status of, we are unique?

easy one for FA to uphold, a nobody, make a good example of him.

so to clear up, that is not violent conduct but am sendimg him off for violent conduct.
Click to expand...
I doubt I'd have sent him off. There's no context to the clip so hard to say. But I might not even have noticed it or I probably would've thought of it as trifling. Dunno without context
Dissent by action?
 
Big Cat said:
I think the R lost his temper

I doubt I'd have sent him off. There's no context to the clip so hard to say. But I might not even have noticed it or I probably would've thought of it as trifling. Dunno without context
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had i watched that clip totally fresh I i would have been thinking red for his outburst at first. Not that i can make it out but his mouthing looks prety foul.

Am not letting a player make contact with me like that though. I rather bin him on the spot then if he was cleared later so be it. If that meant inventing my own reason to red him, then thats what it would take.
 
It might be in the LOTG but do we really want too see red cards for that!? If there was more force then by all means but that would never happen in a PL game and all that referee has done is creating more attention to himself and risking losing discipline from the Eastleigh players especially.

I totally get not touching the official but taking it to the extreme like this I don't think help referees whatsoever sadly.
 
Paul_10 said:
It might be in the LOTG but do we really want too see red cards for that!? If there was more force then by all means but that would never happen in a PL game and all that referee has done is creating more attention to himself and risking losing discipline from the Eastleigh players especially.

I totally get not touching the official but taking it to the extreme like this I don't think help referees whatsoever sadly.
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Yes absolutely

Because if you don't, next week it'll be more forceful
 
We also don't know what the player said as he did it. I have no problem with physical contact with players, I'll often put my arms on their shoulders and I don't mind if they do that with me. But this wasn't that, he has gone to swat his arm away and my hand would definitely be twitching towards my back pocket. If there were suitable words to go along with that action the hand would no longer be twitching, it would be moving at pace towards it.
 
Robbo_6 said:
I was in the same boat as you. You don’t want it to be VC but what else does it come under?

Can OFFINABUS be an action/gesture or does it have to be language?

For example, if a player threatens to harm/kill another player it’s an easy RC. However, if he doesn’t say anything but uses the ‘cut throat’ gesture towards an opponent is there nothing we can do under the laws?
Click to expand...
Law 12 - Offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or actions . . . so the answer to your question is "yes"
 
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