zarathustra
RefChat Addict
Oh no they don’t, it’s just that refs at the top “didnt hear it”.
Done with men’s football
- Thread starter OnlyUseMeWhistle
- Start date
Unfortunately and due to weakness at the top levels for a very long time, you have to accept some verbal abuse. Let's not dress it up as anything else, that's what it is. You o ly have to watch football on tv for the last 30 years to see how players and managers behave and clearly their behaviour is ignored and therefore encouraged. Very occasionally a yellow may be shown, but that's because it's got so wildly put of hand that it's shown for match control, not because of law (that's just ignored 99% of the time).
No point being a lone ranger and being that one ref who's applies law correctly when it comes to dissent, it's anti productive. It's not last week's ref, it's last 30 years worth of refs.
Just accept its how it is and behave accordingly. Its not right but its what's expected and what we all do. Nothing will improve, but its not in pur remit to be martyrs. Use the sin bin and the threat of the sin bin when required and ignore alot of it. Yes I'm being blunt but it's how it is and it's what football has allowed itself to become I'm afraid.
No point being a lone ranger and being that one ref who's applies law correctly when it comes to dissent, it's anti productive. It's not last week's ref, it's last 30 years worth of refs.
Just accept its how it is and behave accordingly. Its not right but its what's expected and what we all do. Nothing will improve, but its not in pur remit to be martyrs. Use the sin bin and the threat of the sin bin when required and ignore alot of it. Yes I'm being blunt but it's how it is and it's what football has allowed itself to become I'm afraid.
I must be a very abusive person as I Say F off about 100 times a day 
Context and delivery is everything but I don't see a world where I would send someone off for saying/shouting F Off.
It's not what football expects and in my opinion, whilst it might be abusive, it's not definitively so, and you can't pigeon hole it to being a red card offence just based on the phrase.
I operate a no surprises policy when refereeing, and I'd like to think it has served me well. When I forget that policy it reminds me why i have it. All about making smart, sensible and expected decisions. When we don't do this, it's where we start to lose control
Context and delivery is everything but I don't see a world where I would send someone off for saying/shouting F Off.
It's not what football expects and in my opinion, whilst it might be abusive, it's not definitively so, and you can't pigeon hole it to being a red card offence just based on the phrase.
I operate a no surprises policy when refereeing, and I'd like to think it has served me well. When I forget that policy it reminds me why i have it. All about making smart, sensible and expected decisions. When we don't do this, it's where we start to lose control
Not sure if you read the whole thread but it wasn't dissent.
Agreed, as I have acknowledged here several times. He shouted it at my face from a few feet away, not sure what else he could have done to make it worse besides square up to me?I must be a very abusive person as I Say F off about 100 times a day
Context and delivery is everything but I don't see a world where I would send someone off for saying/shouting F Off.
I am really really bored of people in this thread treating me like a child who gets upset at a bit of swearing, we all swear. We don't all shout swear words in someone's face. The literal only place I've seen that being defended is on the football pitch and for some reason it's other refs defending it?!
When I play on sunday I'll make sure to try it out myself and see how it goes
When I play on sunday I'll make sure to try it out myself and see how it goes
I think the trouble is that swearing is endemic, so this would have come from left field and been totally unexpected. Personally I am really hard on language, especially when aimed at me, but I don’t go looking for trouble - It will find me.
I’d have handled this by getting him in and giving him a real bollocking with his captain. Tell him he’s being sin binned and that he’s really lucky. The next person to talk to you like that is being sent off, and make sure other people hear it. Then if it happens again no one will be surprised when he’s sent off.
When you cautioned for dissent previously how did you handle that? That was a good opportunity to give a general warning so this didn’t happen, or if it did then it’s not a surprise.
You’re making your reputation, so the next time you have this team they’ll know and won’t swear at you, or they won’t be surprised if it goes badly for them If they do. I have a colleague who lets loads of fouls go, but the players know not to talk to him, and definitely don’t swear at him. When I was playing one of our team got a broken leg from a challenge he didn’t penalise (he should have - it was a blatant foul) and he sent off our captain when he moaned about the challenge! Players know what he’s like and don’t say anything to him.
I went to Barcelona with some mates for a stag do years ago - we were all level 3 or higher - so wanted to watch a Barca match. Ronaldinho scored a great goal, and then obviously said something to the ref and was sent off. Even as referees it spoiled the game as a spectacle so normal spectators would not understand at all. That’s why it’s tolerated in the senior game, and it needs a total change in the game at the top to sort it out. If you watch “The Big Match revisited” on ITV4 you can see that no one is yelling at the ref, and these matches are about 35 years ago, so it started after that.
There’s nothing wrong in Law with sending off for this, and from how you’ve described it I’d probably have done the same, but try to make sure it’s not a surprise for anyone.
I’d have handled this by getting him in and giving him a real bollocking with his captain. Tell him he’s being sin binned and that he’s really lucky. The next person to talk to you like that is being sent off, and make sure other people hear it. Then if it happens again no one will be surprised when he’s sent off.
When you cautioned for dissent previously how did you handle that? That was a good opportunity to give a general warning so this didn’t happen, or if it did then it’s not a surprise.
You’re making your reputation, so the next time you have this team they’ll know and won’t swear at you, or they won’t be surprised if it goes badly for them If they do. I have a colleague who lets loads of fouls go, but the players know not to talk to him, and definitely don’t swear at him. When I was playing one of our team got a broken leg from a challenge he didn’t penalise (he should have - it was a blatant foul) and he sent off our captain when he moaned about the challenge! Players know what he’s like and don’t say anything to him.
I went to Barcelona with some mates for a stag do years ago - we were all level 3 or higher - so wanted to watch a Barca match. Ronaldinho scored a great goal, and then obviously said something to the ref and was sent off. Even as referees it spoiled the game as a spectacle so normal spectators would not understand at all. That’s why it’s tolerated in the senior game, and it needs a total change in the game at the top to sort it out. If you watch “The Big Match revisited” on ITV4 you can see that no one is yelling at the ref, and these matches are about 35 years ago, so it started after that.
There’s nothing wrong in Law with sending off for this, and from how you’ve described it I’d probably have done the same, but try to make sure it’s not a surprise for anyone.
Mooseybaby
Retired big bad baldy in all black!
Granted it's as rare as rocking horse poo, but was at a Brentford vs Oxford game in the early '90s where Oxford striker John Dernin was sent for a very early bath for telling an AR to F Off over an offisde call.
If only football would grow a pair and clamp down on referee abuse at the highest levels, might make life easier for those feeding at the low levels (and yes, well aware this discussion has been had many many times - Expectations/managing the show, blah blah blah)
If only football would grow a pair and clamp down on referee abuse at the highest levels, might make life easier for those feeding at the low levels (and yes, well aware this discussion has been had many many times - Expectations/managing the show, blah blah blah)
As Ben said higher up, I agree that football is broken in that it is wrong that it has become an accepted part of the game for refs to be abused.
Personally I’ve reached a point in the last year or so where I no longer ignore most of the abuse and just set my stall out early. I’ve sin binned at least one player in all but two of my matches this season and having seen some stats from my CFA recently, I reckon I sin bin more than most. Does it bother me that I do this? Nope. I try to always involve the captain as a stepped approach first, some teams heed the warning, others don’t. If you remain firm on where your line is, you haven’t lost match control.
I wouldn’t say it makes me a ‘lone ranger’ either. I’m not necessarily trying to make a change in the culture of football, I’m just not going to stand idly be and be abused by some random bloke when I’m trying to enjoy a game of football. The dissent tends to stop after the first sin bin so I probably now enjoy 88mins of the 90, rather than far less than that due to abuse.
It’s probably easier for me than some as I have no interest in further promotion as I have family/work commitments that get in the way. I sympathise with those who have to put up with it to please the powers that be.
Personally I’ve reached a point in the last year or so where I no longer ignore most of the abuse and just set my stall out early. I’ve sin binned at least one player in all but two of my matches this season and having seen some stats from my CFA recently, I reckon I sin bin more than most. Does it bother me that I do this? Nope. I try to always involve the captain as a stepped approach first, some teams heed the warning, others don’t. If you remain firm on where your line is, you haven’t lost match control.
I wouldn’t say it makes me a ‘lone ranger’ either. I’m not necessarily trying to make a change in the culture of football, I’m just not going to stand idly be and be abused by some random bloke when I’m trying to enjoy a game of football. The dissent tends to stop after the first sin bin so I probably now enjoy 88mins of the 90, rather than far less than that due to abuse.
It’s probably easier for me than some as I have no interest in further promotion as I have family/work commitments that get in the way. I sympathise with those who have to put up with it to please the powers that be.
LancsReferee
New Member
Great view to take @Refollie. I hold to much the same position and, likewise, am not intending to climb any promotion ladders - not sure this makes any difference, tbh. Sin bins and yellows are there to be used, if needed, alongside a stepped approach set out clearly from the outset. Nothing wrong with this - we all know what's going on, and nobody's surprised when cautions come and are clearly and calmly explained.
I must be a very abusive person as I Say F off about 100 times a day
Context and delivery is everything but I don't see a world where I would send someone off for saying/shouting F Off.
It's not what football expects and in my opinion, whilst it might be abusive, it's not definitively so, and you can't pigeon hole it to being a red card offence just based on the phrase.
I operate a no surprises policy when refereeing, and I'd like to think it has served me well. When I forget that policy it reminds me why i have it. All about making smart, sensible and expected decisions. When we don't do this, it's where we start to lose control
I cannot communicate without swearing. I genuinely have to concentrate to not swear. It's just background and the industry I'm in. Being told to F off to my face is a sin bin to me. I am wrong of course. We can dress it up as not OFFINABUS or create a ridiculous context/narrative as to why it isn't OFFINABUS. We can even bring out the ultimate get out of jail card and use the magical phrase "match control". But we are trying to convince ourselves that we can justify black and white OFFINABUS. Tolerance levels is another classic. Set yours (mine) artificially high and there we have it, over baked justification. We are spouting absolute nonsense because the law is unappliable due to the lack of application over the last few decades. But its convenient to us and to the game so let's keep pur tolerances sky high and let's manage. I am 100% as guilty as everyone else from PL to the park. I'm just not ashamed to admit it. "f off" screamed at us angrily not offensive, insulting or abusive? Wh are we kidding. Do that outside of the football pitch and are we seriously saying we think the same? Behave. All that's changes is some grass within some white lines. I hate our tolerance, but I enable it like everyone else. I'm just aware of it and it's actually quite funny
We all have different tolerance levels…
I have a high tolerance to swearing to be honest in men’s football but I draw the line at someone shouting at me across the pitch swearing or no swearing ..
I think James L summed it up perfectly.. context and delivery.. an aggressive FCUK OFF is IMO different to a laughing ‘**** off’ at a decision…
Not easy at all and I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t have sent him off but I also don’t think you should let it put you off refereeing men’s football.
My most recent sending off on a men’s game was a substitute who kept biting and I gave two quick yellows.. I kept thinking after dod I just go through that too quickly.. could I have kept him on the pitch by managing it better.. yes probably… but also no because it was his fault
We always make decisions like this in the split second and I don’t think you should let this one put you off…
I have a high tolerance to swearing to be honest in men’s football but I draw the line at someone shouting at me across the pitch swearing or no swearing ..
I think James L summed it up perfectly.. context and delivery.. an aggressive FCUK OFF is IMO different to a laughing ‘**** off’ at a decision…
Not easy at all and I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t have sent him off but I also don’t think you should let it put you off refereeing men’s football.
My most recent sending off on a men’s game was a substitute who kept biting and I gave two quick yellows.. I kept thinking after dod I just go through that too quickly.. could I have kept him on the pitch by managing it better.. yes probably… but also no because it was his fault
We always make decisions like this in the split second and I don’t think you should let this one put you off…
I couldn't have done it at your age (Ref Men's football that is). That's me being entirely honestI am really really bored of people in this thread treating me like a child who gets upset at a bit of swearing, we all swear. We don't all shout swear words in someone's face. The literal only place I've seen that being defended is on the football pitch and for some reason it's other refs defending it?!
When I play on sunday I'll make sure to try it out myself and see how it goes
I'm 25, nearly 26 to be fair, I am also autistic so that does up my sensitivity a bit I'm sure.
This is an issue and some of the posters on here are in this category. When it mattered my club marks were less than average but i would always red card for a player swearing at me or an assistant. The joy of club marks. I got promoted mainly on assessment. Luckily in one of the assessed games a player swore at the CAR and i sent off the player. Assessor praised me for not tolerating it.
Search your conscience when you ignore this or change the offence to dissent.
"Back in the day" you had to write the words spoken to you and if you did a caution and filled out the report form HONESTLY the CFA would upgrade the charge to Foul and abusive (as was).
How times have changed.
Whenever I have given a red for OFFINABUS I include the specific language, mainly to avoid doubt or my failing memory in case it's appealed
This, yet again, comes back to concentrate on your own games. I've sent players off for OFFINABUS, including at supply and contrib level, but these have been situations where everyone would have been surprised had I not sent them off.
If a fellow referee criticised me for not sending a player off for language I would, politely, tell them to **** off as it is absolutely nothing to do with them. You can only referee your own games, if you send someone off for OFFINABUS that is fine, but you need to stop the holier than thou attitude in criticising other referees.
If a fellow referee criticised me for not sending a player off for language I would, politely, tell them to **** off as it is absolutely nothing to do with them. You can only referee your own games, if you send someone off for OFFINABUS that is fine, but you need to stop the holier than thou attitude in criticising other referees.
I disagree that it’s nothing to do with them when it lowers player’s expectations for the standard of language they can use towards officials. We’ve been willing to tell plenty of people on this forum not to do things a certain way because it makes life harder for other refs in later weeks.
The OP posted what happened to them in a game they refereed.
Is it not possible that other referees actions, or lack of, may have caused them a problem?
A lot of posters on here spend their life criticising others on here. so why your outrage about this criticism?
You also know that some refs are either not able to administer the LOTG or they play for clubs marks. Let's be honest here instead of painting the OP as being wrong.
I got a stat a while back that 70% of active refs in my old county showed no cards in a whole season. What's going on?
Yes, of course it is possible, but this isn't black and white like most laws. I'm far more about when referees allow players to wear jewellery, don't caution for mandatory cautions, ignore DOGSOs because they want an easy life, end so on. For those they are deliberately ignoring the laws, that simply isn't the case for OFFINABUS since the law was changed from foul & abusive language to its current incarnation decades ago. What offends one referee might not necessarily offend another.
If 70% of the referees in your county aren't showing any cards your RDO should be all over it. They might be able to go a number of games without a card, but no referee can get through an entire season without encountering offences that are mandatory caution or sending off. Also, in my experience it is the referees that ignore mandatory cautions that have problems with dissent and OFFINABUS. Players start to lose confidence that the referee will protect them, and that is when the dissent and abuse starts.