A&H

defenders pushing in the penalty area

Kent Ref said:
When a player is just a few yards away and you've sheen the push, the body of the attacker go forwards from the push there's no doubt as to what you have seen.

The players yesterday admitted the pushes but were not used to refs giving them as they didn't go down. By the way the second one was appealed but i'd already blown as he shouted. Part of this is down to "the referee last week" scenario which has always existed.

You award for what you see, not for any other reason. Integrity is important.

This nonsense about referees are not there for foul detection is stupid. That's one of our biggest, if not the biggest,, reason for us being there to start with.

As for Rusty. You really gave your self away. "I used to have your approach" - giving exactly what you see. But then decided to change your approach to reffing based one individual mistake? I would think your refereeing ambitions were more important therefore you came out with your comment about me not progressing beyond level 5. The old club marks strikes again. But an assessor would likely agree with the penalty - based on fact.

Being honest comes above everything else and giving the correct decision based on what you have seen.

I don't like the feeling of not giving a decision because i didn't hear an appeal. I make my own decisions.

As for warning players i did this after the first corner where there was some 50/50 stuff going on. If players don't take a warning so be it.
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I rest my case. If your refereeing is defined on calling a foul, thats entirely your choice.
Any excellent, very good, or even good, referee, sees the bigger picture instead of being narrow minded.
Refereeing is an attribute which entails many skills. As insane as it may sound, foul detection makes up but one of them
 
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With all due respect Kent Ref you came here to ask a question - I can't work out if it is because you weren't sure or whether you just fancied a bit of a debate about how we're all wrong and last weeks ref...
All of the answers you have been supplied are based on how the powers that be are teaching.
UEFA are openly telling the football community that bar is higher for penalties.
FA are teaching us that we should match our foul tolerance to the game. Not foul recognition, but tolerance for what is and isn't a foul and that can and should change based on the temperature of the game.
An observer might well say I will back you for that penalty but they will potentially give you some advice if it came as a surprise to them or any of the other participants.
It's an accepted practice (by most anyway) of adopting ones foul tolerance to the game. We're not talking stone wallers here we're talking about trifling fouls, that we can either ignore or penalise based on how a game is unfolding.
As others have pointed out, once you get beyond l5 the expectation on Match Officials is to manage an event as much as the match it self.
 
JamesL said:
With all due respect Kent Ref you came here to ask a question - I can't work out if it is because you weren't sure or whether you just fancied a bit of a debate about how we're all wrong and last weeks ref...
All of the answers you have been supplied are based on how the powers that be are teaching.
UEFA are openly telling the football community that bar is higher for penalties.
FA are teaching us that we should match our foul tolerance to the game. Not foul recognition, but tolerance for what is and isn't a foul and that can and should change based on the temperature of the game.
An observer might well say I will back you for that penalty but they will potentially give you some advice if it came as a surprise to them or any of the other participants.
It's an accepted practice (by most anyway) of adopting ones foul tolerance to the game. We're not talking stone wallers here we're talking about trifling fouls, that we can either ignore or penalise based on how a game is unfolding.
As others have pointed out, once you get beyond l5 the expectation on Match Officials is to manage an event as much as the match it self.
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nail on head.

With the greatest respect and recognition for every referee, at every level, and never making a post personal, it has to be stated some posts will have different answers based on a referees level in the gane, either past, present, or future

It maybe takes one who has been there, or, is trying their upmost to get there, to get full appreciation for what is considered being an elite official.

careful with my description nothing offensive intended but a run of mill public park ref, even with 20 years of doing that, will not understand whats expected at the highest senior level. Its a different mindset.
That of course does not mean a good park ref does not do a sterling job, it does mean expectation, appreciation, and managing the game as a whole, is on a different planet altogether.

anyine can watch a game from the side of the pitch and go, foul.
that however, is not refereeing, There is no skill, talent, ability, management, match control, personality needed, nothing, Just eyes that can see a foul,
knowing where on pitch to give the foul, when to give it, thinking ahead to the sanction of the foul ( has he already been booked). ,anticipating the reaction to the foul, will the decision be a surprise, does football expect me to give this, whats the score, whats the time on clock, is this credible, am i looking to 'give' this team a decision...
thats refereeing.
 
If football was tennis and we just gave factual 'in or out' line calls ......

But it's not. Football decisions are full of grey areas and with that comes the need to adapt to what is going on. A challenge you let go in the 30th minute might need a card in the 60th minute because the temperature of the game has changed.

Delivering a game safely / well also involves a good slug of man-management. Man management is not just telling a player that you are factually right and he / she is wrong.

All this is the challenge and the beauty of the art of refereeing.

It's why the best referee will never be defined simply by the best athlete, capable of always being in the right place, with the best eyesight.

It's also why we can carry on improving well past the top of our personal physical ability bell curve.

It's why I simultaneously love it and can be frustrated by it.

And long may it be so
 
Kent Ref said:
When a player is just a few yards away and you've sheen the push, the body of the attacker go forwards from the push there's no doubt as to what you have seen.

The players yesterday admitted the pushes but were not used to refs giving them as they didn't go down. By the way the second one was appealed but i'd already blown as he shouted. Part of this is down to "the referee last week" scenario which has always existed.

You award for what you see, not for any other reason. Integrity is important.

This nonsense about referees are not there for foul detection is stupid. That's one of our biggest, if not the biggest,, reason for us being there to start with.

As for Rusty. You really gave your self away. "I used to have your approach" - giving exactly what you see. But then decided to change your approach to reffing based one individual mistake? I would think your refereeing ambitions were more important therefore you came out with your comment about me not progressing beyond level 5. The old club marks strikes again. But an assessor would likely agree with the penalty - based on fact.

Being honest comes above everything else and giving the correct decision based on what you have seen.

I don't like the feeling of not giving a decision because i didn't hear an appeal. I make my own decisions.

As for warning players i did this after the first corner where there was some 50/50 stuff going on. If players don't take a warning so be it.
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I can see why you feel a lot of replies to your posts (in general) are patronising

From your description, it sounds like both teams accepted your decisions, so It sounds like there was nothing wrong with them
(It just depends on the occasion and the game in hand and you probably refereed your game satisfactorily)

I would say that identifying foul play correctly is not the preserve of Referees. The main difference being is that Refs use the terminology in the book and can better distinguish between penal offences (sanctions)
So, If you're the only one in attendance who thinks something is a FT, chances are you're wrong

My game yesterday was challenging on paper... two teams who've been in bother recently
For 90 mins I was calling the game according to 'what football (the players/managers) expects'. No cautions, no bother, really pleased with my game
Then comes added time and I go against the grain with an unsafe KMI decision which only I'd seen. Thankfully, it didn't affect the result. On another occasion, it could've resulted in mass misconduct and abandonment. Was I right with my decision? Maybe... was I happy with it... No chance
 
Kent Ref said:
When a player is just a few yards away and you've sheen the push, the body of the attacker go forwards from the push there's no doubt as to what you have seen.

The players yesterday admitted the pushes but were not used to refs giving them as they didn't go down. By the way the second one was appealed but i'd already blown as he shouted. Part of this is down to "the referee last week" scenario which has always existed.

You award for what you see, not for any other reason. Integrity is important.

This nonsense about referees are not there for foul detection is stupid. That's one of our biggest, if not the biggest,, reason for us being there to start with.

As for Rusty. You really gave your self away. "I used to have your approach" - giving exactly what you see. But then decided to change your approach to reffing based one individual mistake? I would think your refereeing ambitions were more important therefore you came out with your comment about me not progressing beyond level 5. The old club marks strikes again. But an assessor would likely agree with the penalty - based on fact.

Being honest comes above everything else and giving the correct decision based on what you have seen.

I don't like the feeling of not giving a decision because i didn't hear an appeal. I make my own decisions.

As for warning players i did this after the first corner where there was some 50/50 stuff going on. If players don't take a warning so be it.
Click to expand...

Don't really understand the point of asking a question only to then disagree with several senior referees that have answered it and tell them they are wrong.

And I'm afraid you are definitely wrong on the observer backing you. If I see a referee giving a penalty that no one has appealed for, especially at L5 and above, then I'm criticising rather than complimenting unless it was an absolute stone waller that somehow 22 players and however many coaching staff haven't seen. If they've all missed it there would be a very high probability that I have as well, which means my pencil is writing "incorrect penalty" down. If I was coaching the referee then there would be strong words, the point of coaching is to help the referee progress and he or she simply won't if being in the habit of awarding penalties that surprise everyone.
 
RustyRef said:
Don't really understand the point of asking a question only to then disagree with several senior referees that have answered it and tell them they are wrong.

And I'm afraid you are definitely wrong on the observer backing you. If I see a referee giving a penalty that no one has appealed for, especially at L5 and above, then I'm criticising rather than complimenting unless it was an absolute stone waller that somehow 22 players and however many coaching staff haven't seen. If they've all missed it there would be a very high probability that I have as well, which means my pencil is writing "incorrect penalty" down. If I was coaching the referee then there would be strong words, the point of coaching is to help the referee progress and he or she simply won't if being in the habit of awarding penalties that surprise everyone.
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Yep fully agree.

Players, fans and clubs hate surprises at higher levels. You start giving unexpected decisions then it's going to kill you in the game. That's not just awarding a penalty when no-one is expecting it, it counts for not issuing a caution where everyone is expecting it as well.

Any referee with aspirations to go above L5 who takes the surprises approach would most likely end up back at L5 after their second season as a 4.
 
This is a brilliant discussion about what makes a great referee over a good one.

I started out on a teaching degree many years ago, with a lovely idealistic view of how I would treat the children as individuals and how they would respond to my teaching them, supporting them and helping them grow into happy and fulfilled adults. I would listen to them, explain the world to them and teach them how to accept themselves and each other. It took one teaching practice to disabuse me of that and only two more to realise that maybe reality didn't match my ambition.

Similarly, when I began refereeing I too was of the opinion that the laws are the laws and apply equally to every situation - eg. you see a foul and give it. I remember (fortunately in a friendly) I gave two penalties for handball that I was convinced I'd seen and nobody appealed for. I also added on exactly the amount of time that was lost to stoppages to the point that the players were begging me to blow the whistle. That was about my third game - and at the time I couldn't see why there had been so much outrage and - more to the point - confusion. After a few more games it sank in, and I realised that there is so much more to this art than I'd imagined after passing the exam.

That was about 20 years ago - and I'm still learning every single time (more or less) that I go out.

(I also transferred from my teaching degree to something far more achievable and rewarding for me, so there's that too!)
 
The first corner kick, the first free kick, the first throw-in.

To me, I make my presence known when the shenanigans start.

Some games, its not until the 2nd half, but I get those games where immediately, there's pushing/shoving/grabbing on the corner, statues on free kicks, and taking great liberty on throw-in location.

It's like, what will the ref do?

Once they get it that I'm not putting up with it, it stops.

Guaranteed, the first corner with jostling...my warning...and then they do it...the whistle is not only expected, you can see the wheels turning.
 
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