defenders pushing in the penalty area

[Kent Ref]

I did an adult game today and i gave two penalties.

One at a corner where the defender pushed a player to try and put him off balance. No appeals but i gave the penalty.

One from a cross and as a attacker jumped defender uses both hands to push the player. He did appeal. Penalty given.

Talking to the clubs after they said they can see why the penalty was awarded but their point was "refs don't generally give them unless the player goes down".

Anyway this brings me to something i have always struggled with - how much contact is enough to award a free-kick / penalty?

What's the baseline here?

 

[Viking]

Sounds like you got the balance right. If it impacts play then give it for definite. I gave a pen in an OA when a defender gave a massive push against an attacker as the ball sailed over their heads. They were never going to head it and when they asked why i gave it, i just said to speak to their defender who was looking rather sheepish and guilty.

 

[JamesL]

I try to go for a no surprises approach. Start giving penalties no one is asking for, or for offences that no one else has seen games can go south, pretty quickly.

Answering your actual question, there is no black and white answer. You can give a SFP red for a no contact challenge.
Judge the game if players want to gt on and play football and are accepting of some normal football contact. Other times when a game is heated everything becomes a foul. And this can be flexible in a match. Start off allowing some contact, temperature rises, kill it with a few 'soft' fouls, then if they start getting on with it again start allowing a little more legal physicality.

 

[Kent Ref]

I try to go for a no surprises approach. Start giving penalties no one is asking for, or for offences that no one else has seen games can go south, pretty quickly.

Answering your actual question, there is no black and white answer. You can give a SFP red for a no contact challenge.
Judge the game if players want to gt on and play football and are accepting of some normal football contact. Other times when a game is heated everything becomes a foul. And this can be flexible in a match. Start off allowing some contact, temperature rises, kill it with a few 'soft' fouls, then if they start getting on with it again start allowing a little more legal physicality.

Surely within any 90 minutes you need to be try and be consistent?

What you're suggesting i find confusing and i would think the players would too. How can something be a free-kick one minute and a similar incident nothing 10 minutes later?

Not sure on this.

 

[RustyRef]

Surely within any 90 minutes you need to be try and be consistent?

What you're suggesting i find confusing and i would think the players would too. How can something be a free-kick one minute and a similar incident nothing 10 minutes later?

Not sure on this.

It is known as game management. You start the first 10 minutes not letting much go, but if after that and it is clear they just want to play football you can take the reigns off and allow more to go. If it then gets heated later on you tighten the reigns for another ten minutes, or longer depending on what has happened, until it has all calmed down. Observation competencies at L5 and above even refer to this, in terms of adjusting to changing temperatures of the game, and it is a key skill for a referee to have.

In terms of pushing in the box, if no one is expecting a foul I'm not getting involved. Sometimes what looks like a push is just one player feeling for the other, and any impact is minimal.

 

[Richard smith]

I find myself giving the defending teams 2 chance to comply with my "No Hands" instruction
first one is when the ball is being retrieved for F/k or C/K
Second is before the ball is returned to play

 

[JamesL]

Surely within any 90 minutes you need to be try and be consistent?

What you're suggesting i find confusing and i would think the players would too. How can something be a free-kick one minute and a similar incident nothing 10 minutes later?

Not sure on this.

Pretty much what rusty said.

 

[Trip]

I try to go for a no surprises approach. Start giving penalties no one is asking for, or for offences that no one else has seen games can go south, pretty quickly.

I know this is a common approach and I dare it works in terms of match control. I don't like it though. If I see a two-handed push the question of whether there's an appeal shouldn't really affect my decision should it? It seems to lend weight to the idea that ref's only give it because there's a shout.

The exception is offside if I don't have assistants. If I think it's off and nobody appeals I'm keeping quiet.

 

[Kent Ref]

I know this is a common approach and I dare it works in terms of match control. I don't like it though. If I see a two-handed push the question of whether there's an appeal shouldn't really affect my decision should it? It seems to lend weight to the idea that ref's only give it because there's a shout.

The exception is offside if I don't have assistants. If I think it's off and nobody appeals I'm keeping quiet.

Totally agree.

Why does a ref need an appeal to give a penalty? Who controls the game us or the players?

 

[JamesL]

Totally agree.

Why does a ref need an appeal to give a penalty? Who controls the game us or the players?

We do. Exactly why I don't give any surprises. That way I remain in control.

 

[RustyRef]

Totally agree.

Why does a ref need an appeal to give a penalty? Who controls the game us or the players?

That's fine and your choice, just as long as you are aware that you will almost certainly not get beyond L5 with that approach.

 

[Kent Ref]

That's fine and your choice, just as long as you are aware that you will almost certainly not get beyond L5 with that approach.

Giving penalties could stop me being promoted. That's sad. After nearly 30 years i'm a bit beyond that.

What about your integrity?

 

[Kent Ref]

We do. Exactly why I don't give any surprises. That way I remain in control.

Maybe it's a surprise as some referees don't have the strength to give them? Which camp are you in?

 

[RustyRef]

Giving penalties could stop be being promoted. That's sad. After nearly 30 years i'm a bit beyond that.

What about your integrity?

It's nothing about integrity. Sometimes our peepers play tricks on us, and we all know that these days players appeal for everything, that's even the case for throw-ins and is certainly the case for penalties. If there is no appeal there is every possibility that you have seen it wrong, there are exceptions of course, but is generally the case.

I used to have your approach, that was until I was level 4 and gave a penalty in an FA Cup game. I was 100% certain at the time but as soon as I'd given it alarm bells were ringing as one team went ballistic and the other were laughing. It was being filmed, and even though the quality was rubbish it was easy to see that what I thought had happened simply hadn't. Lesson learned after that point.

 

[JamesL]

Maybe it's a surprise as some referees don't have the strength to give them? Which camp are you in?

I've the strength to give the difficult decisions. I've also the sense to not make the game about the referee where I can help it...
You've clearly. Misunderstood my point. All I am saying is no surprises. Don't go pulling rabbits out of a hat. No one will thank you for it.

 

[RobOda]

How can something be a free-kick one minute and a similar incident nothing 10 minutes later?

It's just judging where the line is basically.

If you're a strict referee, that line is barely going to move anyway, so you will be consistent. But basically put it this way; Something is a free-kick at the 1st minute, but at the 11th minute, that incident can be an easy 'play on/advantage' and everyone's dandy, whereas if you give advantage for that in the 1st minute, it might boil over too soon. You clamp down on things early so that you can give leeway, rather than the other way round because if you fail to give it, and then start giving it because the game is escalating, it'll run away from you.

Does that make sense?

Giving penalties could stop me being promoted.

It generally won't, just if there's no appeals then you need to think twice, and if you need to think twice, then you should err on the side of caution. Again, it is a balancing act. I've given penalties with no appeals and have been praised for it in assessments. At the same time, I've given them with no appeals and everyone's thought I was a plonker.

Regarding your corner penalties, if you see the push, give it, but ideally what you'd like to do is pause the corner before its taken and address the issues with the players. If they know you're watching, and they've seen you be pro-active about it, then they generally will cut it out. And then, if they keep pushing, you've now got the easiest penalty to give and no one can moan about appealing etc, because you've already made it very clear that you were watching and were going to penalise it.

Try that at your next match and see if it addresses the issue for managers/coaches etc.

 

[santa sangria]

Great advice about corners. You can also move so players can see you. Obvs you want to be in the “correct position” when the ball comes in, but walking around during the set up so the players can see you and eyeball them can help. Oh and FFS don’t watch the ball - watch the players!

I think at corners a holding offence has to be 200% if it’s off the ball with neither player with any chance of playing the ball.

 

[Anubis]

I did an adult game today and i gave two penalties.

One at a corner where the defender pushed a player to try and put him off balance. No appeals but i gave the penalty.

One from a cross and as a attacker jumped defender uses both hands to push the player. He did appeal. Penalty given.

Talking to the clubs after they said they can see why the penalty was awarded but their point was "refs don't generally give them unless the player goes down".

Anyway this brings me to something i have always struggled with - how much contact is enough to award a free-kick / penalty?

What's the baseline here?

Rusty and James have given the sensible advice.

nobody is saying in stone, no appeals means no penalty. But playing your incident as you describe in my head, am not giving it.
What prizes are handed out for being the only person to see something?

with neutral Ars, am huge on telling them, actually more than that, I demand, " do not give me decisions I need to justify for the next ten years"

Rustys point is fantastic and, sometimes my style of typing can read as condesending, its not on purpose, but here goes, effective refereeing is NOT simply foul detection.
Its managing the game as a whole.
My gran can see a tackle on tv and know its a foul. That does not mean she can referee.
Refereeing is about managing the game as a whole, not just seeing a foul and thinking, thats a foul, I dont care what the game expects or needs, am the ref, I saw that, am giving that.
Thats not refereeing, thats simply foul detection
There is no awareness, feel for game, control and management

Working alone, angle of 18, you are perfectly placed to see ball skiff off defender aa it goes out of play on the goal line....no appeals for corner, attacking team makimg their way to set up for goal kick, you, and you alone know its a corner
What says you?

Its a corner kick, says the referee who gets the decision right
its a goal kick, says the referee who gets the game right.

the utopia of being a referee is to get your game right,

 

[JamesL]

For penalties I like to be very sure mainly because you are awarding a 90% chance of scoring a goal.
If a fouled player or his team mates makes zero appeal then I would bet that the foul you saw did not impact them.
And that falls in line with what we are hearing UEFA saying during Euro 2020 (21) is that the bar for fouls in the penalty area is higher, whether you agree with that or not is your perogative.

 

[Kent Ref]

When a player is just a few yards away and you've sheen the push, the body of the attacker go forwards from the push there's no doubt as to what you have seen.

The players yesterday admitted the pushes but were not used to refs giving them as they didn't go down. By the way the second one was appealed but i'd already blown as he shouted. Part of this is down to "the referee last week" scenario which has always existed.

You award for what you see, not for any other reason. Integrity is important.

This nonsense about referees are not there for foul detection is stupid. That's one of our biggest, if not the biggest,, reason for us being there to start with.

As for Rusty. You really gave your self away. "I used to have your approach" - giving exactly what you see. But then decided to change your approach to reffing based one individual mistake? I would think your refereeing ambitions were more important therefore you came out with your comment about me not progressing beyond level 5. The old club marks strikes again. But an assessor would likely agree with the penalty - based on fact.

Being honest comes above everything else and giving the correct decision based on what you have seen.

I don't like the feeling of not giving a decision because i didn't hear an appeal. I make my own decisions.

As for warning players i did this after the first corner where there was some 50/50 stuff going on. If players don't take a warning so be it.