The Ref Stop

Continuation of did the player do anything to move hand away........

AlexF said:
This is why we have referee instructors that share the interpretations with the masses.

This is why we have the FIFA considerations (published annually, give or take) that are shared by those instructors with the masses.

It works well (very well) in some places... not so well in others. Unfortuantely.
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Since when do referee instructors share interpretation of the Laws in a consistent manner? As we know from the forum, we all have somewhat different interpretations. Is that any surprise? I haven't seen an instructor or had any guidance since completing my course. I had to go off and find my local RA because there was no chance of them finding me. I didn't even know RA's existed until joining the forum. Indeed, without this forum, I'd be clueless (which is probably why we probably see so many clueless referees at grass roots level)
 
The Ref Stop
Big Cat said:
Since when do referee instructors share interpretation of the Laws in a consistent manner? As we know from the forum, we all have somewhat different interpretations. Is that any surprise? I haven't seen an instructor or had any guidance since completing my course. I had to go off and find my local RA because there was no chance of them finding me. I didn't even know RA's existed until joining the forum. Indeed, without this forum, I'd be clueless (which is probably why we probably see so many clueless referees at grass roots level)
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Communication really does need improving at grassroots level imo.
 
Big Cat said:
What RAP videos??
I don't understand why guidance is communicated in such a random, inconsistent manner. If the Law has changed or new guidance is released, IFAB should put it in the book or a circular which reaches officials the world over. Otherwise, it's a stupid communication process
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They're the training videos/information released by UEFA twice a year for their top level referees and national referee instructors. If that information isn't making it to the masses, that's an FA problem. Here's the latest version from this year. It includes a couple hundred videos so it's a massive file.

https://www.dutchreferee.com/refereeing-assistance-programme/
 
cwyeary said:
They're the training videos/information released by UEFA twice a year for their top level referees and national referee instructors. If that information isn't making it to the masses, that's an FA problem. Here's the latest version from this year. It includes a couple hundred videos so it's a massive file.

https://www.dutchreferee.com/refereeing-assistance-programme/
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What % of grass roots referees do you think see these things? I'd estimate a figure close to zero
No disrespect to dutchreferee.com but we're hardly likely to stumble across this material
 
Big Cat said:
What % of grass roots referees do you think see these things? I'd estimate a figure close to zero
No disrespect to dutchreferee.com but we're hardly likely to stumble across this material
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I'm not disagreeing that the communication is total ****. I'm just saying that FIFA and UEFA release a lot of materials to the FAs about application of the laws. The FAs just don't give that information to their grass roots refs in an effective manner.
 
One would get the feeling there is a disconnect of sorts between IFAB and the referee departments of FIFA or ontinental football bodies. It seems some interpretations taught don't match how the law intends them to be.
 
one said:
One would get the feeling there is a disconnect of sorts between IFAB and the referee departments of FIFA or ontinental football bodies. It seems some interpretations taught don't match how the law intends them to be.
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There's a good connection between IFAB and FIFA. And there's a good connection from FIFA to the confederations (and to the FIFA instructors). There's a good connection between the confederations and the various FAs. There's a good connection between the various FAs and the top level referees.

Where things begin to fall a bit flat pretty much everywhere. Unfortunately.

Remember also that what a FIFA level referee can understand is typically a lot different from a grassroots referee, especially one who is only a couple of years into the vocation.
 
AlexF said:
Remember also that what a FIFA level referee can understand is typically a lot different from a grassroots referee
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Whilst I accept that a FIFA or elite referee will be infinitely more experienced than a Grass Roots man, there is no reason why the latter couldn't typically understand the same principles as the former. Football isn't intended to be a complicated affair, although IFAB have done a good job of writing parts of the book in some 'secret code'
 
Big Cat said:
Whilst I accept that a FIFA or elite referee will be infinitely more experienced than a Grass Roots man, there is no reason why the latter couldn't typically understand the same principles as the former. Football isn't intended to be a complicated affair, although IFAB have done a good job of writing parts of the book in some 'secret code'
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Having been a referee instructor for 5+ years... I can assure you that the more experienced you are as a referee, the easier it is to understand certain principles and things.

It's the same kind of thing as regular school. You start with some basic foundations, then build on them over time, until you have something akin to the bigger picture.

Some people learn really well and will grasp the higher principles sooner... others can be officiating for 20+ years and still have trouble grasping simple principles.
 
AlexF said:
Having been a referee instructor for 5+ years... I can assure you that the more experienced you are as a referee, the easier it is to understand certain principles and things.

It's the same kind of thing as regular school. You start with some basic foundations, then build on them over time, until you have something akin to the bigger picture.

Some people learn really well and will grasp the higher principles sooner... others can be officiating for 20+ years and still have trouble grasping simple principles.
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There are no complicated principles in football. Like with most things in life, you've either got it, or you haven't. The former will learn from experience (and guidance), the latter will not. But there is nothing complicated to understand. A man who could diffuse an argument doesn't need a training course to do so, but the more arguments diffused, the better he will be at preventing a fight. Others simply do not have the capacity to do this, no matter how many training courses you send them on
 
No, there are some underlying principles of how the laws work that some referees get and some don't - and with experience you become more adept at applying these principles. Reading between the lines, if you will.

Anyway, it's a shame that FIFA don't set up a website that referees can log into to access all these training documents. It's a global problem that a lot of the interpretations and advice are top secret (of course, when some of the directives directly contravene the LOTG that's another problem)
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
No, there are some underlying principles of how the laws work that some referees get and some don't - and with experience you become more adept at applying these principles. Reading between the lines, if you will.

Anyway, it's a shame that FIFA don't set up a website that referees can log into to access all these training documents. It's a global problem that a lot of the interpretations and advice are top secret (of course, when some of the directives directly contravene the LOTG that's another problem)
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Certainly for level 4 and above, in England, that is going to be the case.
They've trialled a system with 2 bs and are rolling out to lvl 4 and above and refs on core program.
Its an online learning platform.
Whether it will be the fifa or ifab docs probably not but at least it is t
Learning that might help standardise and bring consistent reffing at those levels.
 
santa sangria said:
Unexpected ball
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Eh.. Unexpected Ball. That's not a defined term in the non-existent definitions section of the book!
It paradoxical. Whilst I don't think there's anything complicated about refereeing, I'm absorbed by how difficult it is to be accomplished at it
 
I have wonders about this consideration in LOTG:

"the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence"

It seems to offer no help and also confuses things. So does the position of the hand matter or doesn't it matter? The statement seems to suggest 6 one way and half dozen the other and will be better of left out of the LOTG.
 
one said:
I have wonders about this consideration in LOTG:

"the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence"

It seems to offer no help and also confuses things. So does the position of the hand matter or doesn't it matter? The statement seems to suggest 6 one way and half dozen the other and will be better of left out of the LOTG.
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I think the point is more that position can be an indicator of whether an action was deliberate, but a position that may indicate a deliberate act may not necessarily have been a deliberate act, if that makes sense? In other words, arm out wide away from the body may often indicate it is deliberate, but just because the arm is out wide, doesn't necessarily mean it has been deliberate.
 
alexgr said:
I think the point is more that position can be an indicator of whether an action was deliberate, but a position that may indicate a deliberate act may not necessarily have been a deliberate act, if that makes sense? In other words, arm out wide away from the body may often indicate it is deliberate, but just because the arm is out wide, doesn't necessarily mean it has been deliberate.
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That's not what the law says. In simple terms its says, "it may be an indicator or it may not be an indicator" which is just as good as saying nothing at all.

What you are saying is how it should be interpreted. I have seen people interpreting as the position of the hand is not a consideration (even on this forum) at all and I don't blame them. As i said it just confuses things.
 
cwyeary said:
They're the training videos/information released by UEFA twice a year for their top level referees and national referee instructors. If that information isn't making it to the masses, that's an FA problem. Here's the latest version from this year. It includes a couple hundred videos so it's a massive file.

https://www.dutchreferee.com/refereeing-assistance-programme/
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Thanks for the link btw Cwyeary
The 10Gb download got my attention! Most of the videos aren't much use without accompanying discussion etc
However, the match situation analysis section is very good. Just a shame it's not my RDO who shares this kind of material
 
Handball esp at the moment seems two tier
"They " would give it and directives back it up
"We" would not and the lotg back us up

Which aint really right.
 
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