RefSix

Coin toss !!

one

RefChat Addict
#41
Ok, I'll bite, even though I think this is not worth a debate.

I'll say fine captain you are calling it and you are tails. Toss the coin and get on with it.

And just in case if you are wondering when I ask the away captain to call it and the home captain says why does he get to call it, I'd say fine, you can get to call it today.

Now how do you do yours so I can pick it to shreds :). Just kidding. Can we put this to rest now?
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#43
I've said before that as AR I was once asked "heads or tails" by the ref pre-match, and when I answered "tails" he wrote a T on the palm of his left hand. If a ref can sell that as a fair way of doing a "coin toss", I can't imagine why anyone would have any problem selling any other twist on the concept that they choose to implement!
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#44
My over riding point is/was designating head/tails to captain does not aid match control (as opposed to what i read)
No doubts folk can do as they please
but aiding match control? 100% no chance.
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#45
The home team will typically have an advantage when playing, especially when you get up the pyramid and the home team may want to attack a certain end, or have the slope in the second half.

By asking the away team to call, you are giving them an opportunity in their control (heads or tails) to negate that potential advantage.

In reality, 9 times out of 10 it makes no difference, at grassroots level it's only really where weather conditions are in play (like it's really windy) that it matters at all.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#46
The home team will typically have an advantage when playing, especially when you get up the pyramid and the home team may want to attack a certain end, or have the slope in the second half.

By asking the away team to call, you are giving them an opportunity in their control (heads or tails) to negate that potential advantage.

In reality, 9 times out of 10 it makes no difference, at grassroots level it's only really where weather conditions are in play (like it's really windy) that it matters at all.


The best example might be at OT under Fergie, surely the away team would want every chance off their own back to deny Utd attacking the Stretford in the 2nd half.
Superstition, tradition, slope, wind, sun, crowd all come into play. I personally feel its perverse to deny the captain or person up for the toss, that stab in the dark on the chances. By designating them each a side of the coin as referee, you might as well just do the toss and shout to the team "you lost/won" as the captains involvement has been zero
 
#47
The home team will typically have an advantage when playing, especially when you get up the pyramid and the home team may want to attack a certain end, or have the slope in the second half.

By asking the away team to call, you are giving them an opportunity in their control (heads or tails) to negate that potential advantage.

In reality, 9 times out of 10 it makes no difference, at grassroots level it's only really where weather conditions are in play (like it's really windy) that it matters at all.


???? - 'Negate potential advantage' - it doesn't matter who calls, home, away or referee - each side has a 50% chance of winning
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#48
???? - 'Negate potential advantage' - it doesn't matter who calls, home, away or referee - each side has a 50% chance of winning
Quote the whole line..

Yes it's a 50/50 chance, that doesn't change, however you are giving the away captain the decision as to what they call.

Either way, each to their own, until it unless the process gets enshrined into the LOTG or competition rules, whatever way you do it doesn't really matter. Just make sure you remember your coin and don't revert to "Rock, Paper, Scissors"

For me I get the away team to call every time.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#49
They just say to the captains: you are heads, you are tails. Their idea is that you can show you take control there. What are your thoughts on this?


This is the quote which started this carbuncle. Nobody unless I have missed or misread something has anything to add to the idea that you are showing you can take control
What we have read is a list of folk saying what they do, which is fine.
Is it fair then we can dismiss the notion that the ref calling the side of the coin on behalf of the captains is showing you are in control?
Nobody has offered up anything to support this.
 
#50
They just say to the captains: you are heads, you are tails. Their idea is that you can show you take control there. What are your thoughts on this?


This is the quote which started this carbuncle. Nobody unless I have missed or misread something has anything to add to the idea that you are showing you can take control
What we have read is a list of folk saying what they do, which is fine.
Is it fair then we can dismiss the notion that the ref calling the side of the coin on behalf of the captains is showing you are in control?
Nobody has offered up anything to support this.
Good try Ciley, sure we can get this to 4 pages if we try!;)

My final word on this is - you can't deny the fact that it doesn't matter who calls, its a 50/50 chance - no one gains or loses from who calls!
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#51
Good try Ciley, sure we can get this to 4 pages if we try!;)

My final word on this is - you can't deny the fact that it doesn't matter who calls, its a 50/50 chance - no one gains or loses from who calls!


if it does not matter who calls and the ref is going to call, why bother getting the captains up? :)
You be aswell just pointing to one team, saying, "guys you were heads" and telling them its their kick off
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#52
They just say to the captains: you are heads, you are tails. Their idea is that you can show you take control there. What are your thoughts on this?
@PinnerPaul I'm going to agree with you that its a 50/50 chance for the sake of not being a complete pedant (even though I know its not, due to not all coins being exactly evenly weighted on both sides, coupled with the starting angle of the coin) - <that's for any physics geeks out there> ;)

In terms of control, 99.9% of time its not going to make a difference, but its always the odd occasion where it might.

You are in the middle for a game and you say "Away team Heads, home team Tails". The away captain tells you adamantly he wants tails as he always calls it. You have either put yourself in a position where you turn it into a "You" power play - being "I've decided and that's the way its going to be" OR you cave in which gives a perception of you being weak and influenceable because you've given in. You could then be perceived as giving fouls or sanctions because one team is shouting for it.

Assume you say to the away captain, "Your choice, Heads or Tails". The home captain asks, "Why do I not call?" and you answer, "That's because they are your visitors" you're not going to get a single additional issue.

This all might be a complete load of cobblers, but at the end of the day each to their own....
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#53
@PinnerPaul I'm going to agree with you that its a 50/50 chance for the sake of not being a complete pedant (even though I know its not, due to not all coins being exactly evenly weighted on both sides, coupled with the starting angle of the coin) - <that's for any physics geeks out there> ;)

In terms of control, 99.9% of time its not going to make a difference, but its always the odd occasion where it might.

You are in the middle for a game and you say "Away team Heads, home team Tails". The away captain tells you adamantly he wants tails as he always calls it. You have either put yourself in a position where you turn it into a "You" power play - being "I've decided and that's the way its going to be" OR you cave in which gives a perception of you being weak and influenceable because you've given in. You could then be perceived as giving fouls or sanctions because one team is shouting for it.

Assume you say to the away captain, "Your choice, Heads or Tails". The home captain asks, "Why do I not call?" and you answer, "That's because they are your visitors" you're not going to get a single additional issue.

This all might be a complete load of cobblers, but at the end of the day each to their own....



Amen.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#56
I can't believe that people are getting so up tight about something as trivial as the coin toss.

I've worked with referees who've done the coin toss lots of different ways with variations on who tosses the coin and who call etc. And guess what? I have never seen or heard of a captain complaining because they didn't get to choose.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#57
if it does not matter who calls and the ref is going to call, why bother getting the captains up? :)
You be aswell just pointing to one team, saying, "guys you were heads" and telling them its their kick off
You get the captains up to witness the result. It's a 50/50 chance and by seeing which side the coin lands, they can be comfortable that they won/lost fairly. If you just tell them what's happening, they have no proof that it was a fair chance.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#59
You get the captains up to witness the result. It's a 50/50 chance and by seeing which side the coin lands, they can be comfortable that they won/lost fairly. If you just tell them what's happening, they have no proof that it was a fair chance.


Thanks for that, I had not considered that..........



And it wont matter one iota but, my mass confrontation ref has been handed his 2nd ever Champ league game, so, am not naive enough to know its based on one incident, but, lets just say obviously hampered him too much....lucky man :)
 
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JH

RefChat Addict
#60
Nobody has yet answered what to do when the captain says, I always call tails
You are seriously going to say, not today you dont??
When has that ever happened? You say people must have a personality disorder for wanting to assign heads and tails yet a grown man/woman moaning that they 'always call tails' is valid?
 
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