The Ref Stop

Bodycams Open Age Grassroots Trial 'Early 2023'

I appreciate the concerns but it’s an idea I am a fan of. However, it does raise many questions, many of which have been raised on here and also it obviously could not be used in youth football, even U18, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Remind me again as to who has been proven guilty of being a “bent crook” in a court of law?
On a separate note, of all the crazy stuff I’ve seen on this forums in over 2 years as a part of it, shilling for a corrupt FIFA has got to be up there
 
The Ref Stop
I appreciate the concerns but it’s an idea I am a fan of. However, it does raise many questions, many of which have been raised on here and also it obviously could not be used in youth football, even U18, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

On a separate note, of all the crazy stuff I’ve seen on this forums in over 2 years as a part of it, shilling for a corrupt FIFA has got to be up there
So remind me, who has been convicted in a court of law?
 
So remind me, who has been convicted in a court of law?
Jose Maria Marin and Juan Angel Napout.

If you’re seriously ignoring the guilty pleas then that’s crazy but I’ll give you two names convicted in a court of law.
 
From the college of policing about that 15% study: "This finding was not statistically significant." A study by the same researcher looking at cameras worn by railway staff showed a 45% decrease https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0734016818814889
...which is why their spokesman works for the College of Policing and not in Mathematics. A 15% increase represents a substantial increase. If there were 1000 assaults in a week, this would increase the number to 1150. I'm quite sure every one of those extra 150 assaulted personnel would feel quite strongly about the matter.
 
Ok - so why does “official capacity” deny right to protect yourself with a camera?

Also any image taken a public place can be simply uploaded to something like twitter or Facebook - I’m not buying the data protection bit - I smell bull …
I explained it in my post, but I'll expand further. An individual taking a photo or video and uploading it to Facebook or Twitter isn't covered by GDPR, but when you are being paid to provide a service and potentially sharing it with other organisations (CFA, FA, police) that changes.

The police have been mentioned on this thread, so using them as an example, they will have a data retention policy for any material caught on their bodycams. This will have to cover things like how and where the data is stored, how it is secured, and how long it is kept for. GDPR applies to anything that may contain Personally Identifiable Information (PII), that is basically anything that allows a person to be identified, and is defined by the ICO as ...
  • Personal data only includes information relating to natural persons who:
    • can be identified or who are identifiable, directly from the information in question; or
    • can be indirectly identified from that information in combination with other information.
A photo or video can be classed as PII as it may allow a person to be identified. For example, the players in the images or videos may have a profile photo on a website, or they may have their shirt number listed on Full Time or other online systems.

Realistically, it would be very unlikely for the ICO to go after a referee for a breach of GDPR. The same can't be said for CFAs and the FA though, they are limited companies and therefore absolutely under the scrutiny of the authorities. Which means any bodycam material passed to them will have to be stored, processed and destroyed in full compliance with GDPR.
 
I explained it in my post, but I'll expand further. An individual taking a photo or video and uploading it to Facebook or Twitter isn't covered by GDPR, but when you are being paid to provide a service and potentially sharing it with other organisations (CFA, FA, police) that changes.

The police have been mentioned on this thread, so using them as an example, they will have a data retention policy for any material caught on their bodycams. This will have to cover things like how and where the data is stored, how it is secured, and how long it is kept for. GDPR applies to anything that may contain Personally Identifiable Information (PII), that is basically anything that allows a person to be identified, and is defined by the ICO as ...
  • Personal data only includes information relating to natural persons who:
    • can be identified or who are identifiable, directly from the information in question; or
    • can be indirectly identified from that information in combination with other information.
A photo or video can be classed as PII as it may allow a person to be identified. For example, the players in the images or videos may have a profile photo on a website, or they may have their shirt number listed on Full Time or other online systems.

Realistically, it would be very unlikely for the ICO to go after a referee for a breach of GDPR. The same can't be said for CFAs and the FA though, they are limited companies and therefore absolutely under the scrutiny of the authorities. Which means any bodycam material passed to them will have to be stored, processed and destroyed in full compliance with GDPR.
A much beefier explanation than mine above but this to is my understanding.
A referee is self employed. You are not Joe Bloggs. You're being paid for a.servive and in providing that service collecting the data, in this case the image, of many subjects.
 
I should add that I work in IT and was heavily involved in getting a very large financial services company to being compliant with GDPR when The EU released it in 2016, so I am qualified to talk about it.
 
I explained it in my post, but I'll expand further. An individual taking a photo or video and uploading it to Facebook or Twitter isn't covered by GDPR, but when you are being paid to provide a service and potentially sharing it with other organisations (CFA, FA, police) that changes.

That isn't true. Your police example is not relevant because police forces are organisations, not individuals. Your experience with GDPR compliance in financial organisations is not relevant because those are organisations.

You cannot make a GDPR related complaint to the ICO about an individual's handling of your data. If your contention is that referees by virtue of being referees are somehow an exception to this general principle you're going to need to cite a credible source. I've considerable experience with GDPR in an IT environment myself and have never come across anything to support that.
 
That isn't true. Your police example is not relevant because police forces are organisations, not individuals. Your experience with GDPR compliance in financial organisations is not relevant because those are organisations.

You cannot make a GDPR related complaint to the ICO about an individual's handling of your data. If your contention is that referees by virtue of being referees are somehow an exception to this general principle you're going to need to cite a credible source. I've considerable experience with GDPR in an IT environment myself and have never come across anything to support that.

Blimey, I keep having to say the same thing 100 times. There's an argument to say that referees are not individuals as they are being paid for providing a service on behalf of an organisation. That might be a league, but it might be a CFA for a county cup or the FA for a higher level cup, and in those last two cases you are very much being paid to provide a service on behalf of an organisation. You've only selectively quoted my post and therefore missed off that I said that the ICO is unlikely to go after individual referees.

But any bodycam images have to be sent to CFAs / The FA if anything goes wrong and they are 100% covered by GDPR, and how those images are processed (including how referees send them), stored and deleted are key considerations.
 
From the college of policing about that 15% study: "This finding was not statistically significant." A study by the same researcher looking at cameras worn by railway staff showed a 45% decrease https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0734016818814889

...which is why their spokesman works for the College of Policing and not in Mathematics. A 15% increase represents a substantial increase. If there were 1000 assaults in a week, this would increase the number to 1150. I'm quite sure every one of those extra 150 assaulted personnel would feel quite strongly about the matter.
I'm not particularly arguing one way or the other regarding bodycams, haven't read the paper in question in detail either, and am certainly not intending to minimise the 'significance' of referee assault generally or for the individuals concerned.
However, it is important not to dismiss both papers purely on a (very common) misunderstanding of the meaning of the term 'statistically significant'.
Also, although Brian is probably quite correct that the spokesman isn't a mathematician, I'd be surprised if the authors of the paper have not had input from a professional statistician in both the design of the study and the analysis of the results.

Essentially:
- In the scientific literature, something is deemed a 'statistically significant' change if it is very unlikely to have occurred by chance [precisely how unlikely mathematically should be made clear in the paper].
- 'Substantial increase' is not a precisely-defined term, but I think people generally intend it to mean 'a big increase', or 'a big percentage increase'.

It is perfectly possible for a 'substantial' increase to not be 'statistically significant'.
It is perfectly possible for a 'tiny' increase to be 'highly statistically significant'.


To give an example of the former (not the best analogy, but hopefully clear enough):
I toss a coin twice and it comes up heads once and tails once.
I toss a different coin twice and it comes up heads both times.

So we have seen 100% more heads with the second coin than with the first coin.
I think it would be difficult to argue that 100% is not a 'substantial' (percentage) increase.

However, I think that it would be equally difficult to argue that the difference is 'statistically significant', since this outcome is quite likely to occur just by chance (it would actually be expected to occur 25% of the time - whereas the threshold for 'statistical significance' is usually specified at <5% or <1% or even lower for some areas of science).

And to give an example of the latter:
If instead I tossed each coin 1,000,000 times & had 500,000 heads for the first coin and 501,000 heads for the second coin, that is now only a fraction of a percent more heads with the second coin than with the first coin, so a much less substantial difference than before, but it is also now a much more 'statistically significant' result, as it is extremely unlikely to have happened by chance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another point, GDPR is not my area of expertise, but I'd be interested to know whether if the only change made by IFAB / FA was to allow (rather than to mandate [or even organise / facilitate]) the use of bodycams then perhaps the GDPR requirements would be somewhat different. i.e. if a referee chose to film whilst officiating, that might be seen differently under GDPR to an organising body requiring them to film. Obviously once the 'organisation' receives any footage from a referee who has chosen to send it to them then they have to handle it appropriately. But it could perhaps be argued that is no different to how they would have to handle any footage I choose to send them as a parent if I happen to capture a significant incident when videoing my son or daughter playing in a match, or my son refereeing.
 
I'm not particularly arguing one way or the other regarding bodycams, haven't read the paper in question in detail either, and am certainly not intending to minimise the 'significance' of referee assault generally or for the individuals concerned.
However, it is important not to dismiss both papers purely on a (very common) misunderstanding of the meaning of the term 'statistically significant'.
Also, although Brian is probably quite correct that the spokesman isn't a mathematician, I'd be surprised if the authors of the paper have not had input from a professional statistician in both the design of the study and the analysis of the results.

Essentially:
- In the scientific literature, something is deemed a 'statistically significant' change if it is very unlikely to have occurred by chance [precisely how unlikely mathematically should be made clear in the paper].
- 'Substantial increase' is not a precisely-defined term, but I think people generally intend it to mean 'a big increase', or 'a big percentage increase'.

It is perfectly possible for a 'substantial' increase to not be 'statistically significant'.
It is perfectly possible for a 'tiny' increase to be 'highly statistically significant'.
Trimmed your comment for readability but appreciate the whole thing! Thank you :)
 
On the GDPR debate… this is specifically why the proposed bodycam plan includes all the footage being encrypted and uploaded - and the referee not being able to access it - the referee can only give the time of the incident and ask the “powers” to inspect the footage.

This was explained clearly - but with the proviso that “they haven’t worked out the details.”

I think this is a non-runner. It will be expensive, I think there will be more legal loopholes and I don’t think it will work in practice.

Imagine, ref gives the time, camera was not facing protagonist, or time slot missed the speaker, or speaker is not in frame.

There are so many things to go wrong. And it’s too far fetched. The police are a tight bureacratic organization designed for compliance - referees are not.
 
On the GDPR debate… this is specifically why the proposed bodycam plan includes all the footage being encrypted and uploaded - and the referee not being able to access it - the referee can only give the time of the incident and ask the “powers” to inspect the footage.

This was explained clearly - but with the proviso that “they haven’t worked out the details.”

I think this is a non-runner. It will be expensive, I think there will be more legal loopholes and I don’t think it will work in practice.

Imagine, ref gives the time, camera was not facing protagonist, or time slot missed the speaker, or speaker is not in frame.

There are so many things to go wrong. And it’s too far fetched. The police are a tight bureacratic organization designed for compliance - referees are not.
Plus cameras that automatically upload to the cloud are vastly more expensive than those that save to local SD cards, you are talking hundreds of pounds per unit. And there will typically also be a cloud subscription on top of the purchase cost.

Where did you see about the proposal that referees won't have access to the footage, I must have missed that?
 
Plus cameras that automatically upload to the cloud are vastly more expensive than those that save to local SD cards, you are talking hundreds of pounds per unit. And there will typically also be a cloud subscription on top of the purchase cost.

Where did you see about the proposal that referees won't have access to the footage, I must have missed that?
The lady interviewed on Talksh*** the other week.

Reminder again - there is some kind of agreement in principle that a trial can go ahead. But the method is far from realistic or finalised as explained on the radio. And for it to become anything more than a trial with a handful of devices will take IT-project -level cash.
 
The lady interviewed on Talksh*** the other week.

Reminder again - there is some kind of agreement in principle that a trial can go ahead. But the method is far from realistic or finalised as explained on the radio. And for it to become anything more than a trial with a handful of devices will take IT-project -level cash.
Guessing that was Janie Frampton from RefSupport UK then?
 
Guessing that was Janie Frampton from RefSupport UK then?
TBH cannot remember the name but they gave her a good interview. Came over very genuine. But… she went into too much detail about the details she confessed they obviously have not worked out.

There’s part of me thinks this only has a green light becsuse the powers know it’s a non runner. But I am a cynic.
 
TBH cannot remember the name but they gave her a good interview. Came over very genuine. But… she went into too much detail about the details she confessed they obviously have not worked out.

There’s part of me thinks this only has a green light becsuse the powers know it’s a non runner. But I am a cynic.
The irony is they have been pressing for bodycams for years, so you would have thought they'd have concrete plans in place in case they ever got approval to proceed. Several people warned them on their Facebook site that GDPR was likely to be an issue, and now here we are.
 
This is a really good demonstration of how a ref bodycam would show how players speak to a referee and IMO benefit the game.

I like referee Ted Unkel’s communication style, although he did receive criticism for refereeing the game too seriously given it is effectively an exhibition match. Six yellow cards.

MLS All Stars Manager, Wayne Rooney expressed his views on referee Ted Unkel during the post match conference.

"I thought the referee made the game a little bit about himself once again," Rooney said. "I think that's something that needs improving in the MLS. I've said it all season, so it's a good opportunity for me to bring it up again."

 
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