Arsen Liv

[Padfoot]

Must be a lot of boxes in a lot of places then, as I'd be surprised to see these given in a contrib or even supply league game ….

Questioning the integrity of top level referees perhaps not the most sensible thing to do on a refereeing forum …

But if, as you’ve already admitted, that these are fouls, but in order to protect their jobs, for which they are financially rewarded, they deliberately pretend they are not fouls......are they not sacrificing their integrity?

How else do you describe it? Only following orders?

 

[GraemeS]

By the letter of the law they're both probably fouls. But as Rusty points out, it's far from just SG1 that don't penalise these, it's the expected behaviour up and down the football pyramid. I know if those fouls happen in my games, I definitely wouldn't have given a PK for what Allison did and probably not against Leno (slightly more of a case with him as the ball remains in play after the contact). And I'm not making that decision because I've sacrificed my integrity for the £35 I get given at the end of the match, I'm making that decision because it's the expected decision.

So it's not a case of some mysterious conspiracy coming from PGMOL and the FA, it's simply a fairly standard and common inconsistency between the laws and what football has come to expect. You're absolutely right to point it out as a problem that needs addressing, but given Marriner seemed to decide yesterday that pushing under every high ball and hacking opponents heels were consistently not fouls, I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to be the agent for change and give a decision so far out of line with what is expected.

 

[Padfoot]

Nope....it’s a simple case of people pretending an offence isn’t an offence because they have been manipulated into believing that football expects us to ignore these offences.......

In reality had the officials actually had some backbone and decided not to check their integrity at the dressing room door in favour of popularity maybe football would have more realistic, and honest, expectations.

But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of your wriggling to justify how and why officials sell themselves out.

 

[bester]

Once VAR comes in what football expects will rapidly change, and goalkeepers will become even more European style and stay on their line.

In these instances the goalkeeper was so late I don't think their would have been many complaints if a penalty was given anyway.

 

[Trip]

I find this very frustrating. Either change the laws so that these challenges are allowed, or enforce the laws as they are.

I've been in the position of not awarding a penalty when a keeper clatters the striker after the striker has got a shot off and, when the attacking team ask why it's not a pen, not being able to supply a satisfactory answer. Because there really isn't one. "It's an accepted convention to ignore the laws of the game in this instance," which is the actual reason, is pretty weak.

 

[RustyRef]

But if, as you’ve already admitted, that these are fouls, but in order to protect their jobs, for which they are financially rewarded, they deliberately pretend they are not fouls......are they not sacrificing their integrity?

How else do you describe it? Only following orders?

Level 4s and 3s aren't financially rewarded, barely get minimal wage, yet as I said I'd be surprised to see one of them award a penalty in those situations.

Like it or not, the coaching of referees these days focuses very much on managing the game and making what is the expected decision. The expected decision here was nothing, as penalties would have surprised everyone (did anyone even appeal?)

 

[Big Cat]

I find this very frustrating. Either change the laws so that these challenges are allowed, or enforce the laws as they are.

I've been in the position of not awarding a penalty when a keeper clatters the striker after the striker has got a shot off and, when the attacking team ask why it's not a pen, not being able to supply a satisfactory answer. Because there really isn't one. "It's an accepted convention to ignore the laws of the game in this instance," which is the actual reason, is pretty weak.

The LOTG are overlooked routinely. Application of Law is is like fashion, varying by time and place
The book isn't great and its application is less consistent than any other sport i can think of. I understand Padfoot's annoyance

 

[GraemeS]

Nope....it’s a simple case of people pretending an offence isn’t an offence because they have been manipulated into believing that football expects us to ignore these offences.......

In reality had the officials actually had some backbone and decided not to check their integrity at the dressing room door in favour of popularity maybe football would have more realistic, and honest, expectations.

But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of your wriggling to justify how and why officials sell themselves out.

Manipulated? Sell themselves out? What's the matter, forgotten your tinfoil hat today?

There's no great conspiracy here, there's simply a convention that's evolved and has been coached into referees. Is that ideal? Of course not. Does that mean there's some great overriding scheme to somehow.....honestly, I don't even know how to finish this question as I really don't think you even know what the overall aim of this conspiracy you've imagined could be?

 

[Trip]

Expected decisions, no one expects penalties there even though they were technically fouls. They will only get given as penalties if all referees are instructed to give them, a PL referee isn't going to stick his head above the parapet and give these as it will get shot off.

Out of interest, what would the consequences be for a PL referee if he decided to award a penalty for that?

 

[RustyRef]

Out of interest, what would the consequences be for a PL referee if he decided to award a penalty for that?

Good question. Be difficult to mark him down for it as technically it wouldn't be a mistake as within law. The problem is more reputational if you are giving penalties that no one is expecting. There was once a Premier League referee who had something of a reputation for such things, and he ended up quitting saying that he wasn't being supported by his bosses.

 

[Padfoot]

Manipulated? Sell themselves out? What's the matter, forgotten your tinfoil hat today?

There's no great conspiracy here, there's simply a convention that's evolved and has been coached into referees. Is that ideal? Of course not. Does that mean there's some great overriding scheme to somehow.....honestly, I don't even know how to finish this question as I really don't think you even know what the overall aim of this conspiracy you've imagined could be?

Good question. Be difficult to mark him down for it as technically it wouldn't be a mistake as within law. The problem is more reputational if you are giving penalties that no one is expecting. There was once a Premier League referee who had something of a reputation for such things, and he ended up quitting saying that he wasn't being supported by his bosses.

So an elite level ref decided to apply the LOTG correctly and honestly......and was managed out of the business......and you don’t see how wrong that is?

The integrity issues also applies to those lower down as they are making as much of a conscious decision to pretend an offence hasn’t been committed for their own self interest I.e. their advancement......

 

[Trip]

I think RustyRef is stating the case rather than being an advocate for it.