Alonso's Arm vs Bellerin's head
- Thread starter Trip
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I knew this would come up at some point! For me, he jumps at the opponent to land that header. I think it is troubling that Dermot Gallgher, having been contacted on 5 live, said it was a legal challenge; and surprisingly, I have not heard many other referees giving their view. There are so many irrelevant considerations that are murkying the waters, such as 'Alonso has his eyes firmly on the ball' or 'there's no malice', that one's only response can be to take pundits' opinions with an even greater pinch of salt than we do already. Atkinson was not ideally placed--as referees very rarely are when that kind of collision happens in that area of the pitch, especially in a phase after the ball has struck the woodwork--but his assistant perhaps should have helped him.
The more I watch it, the less convinced I am about its severity. What I believe is happening to referees at this level, unfortunately, is that they're being encouraged not to see the wood for the trees. Atkinson's uncertainty about whether the elbow contact made the challenge careless/reckless/excessively forceful may have persuaded him to call it (just about) legal to save himself the trouble of that distinction.
On a separate note, it sounds like concussion procedures were correctly implemented, for which the officials and coaching staff deserve credit after recent events.
The more I watch it, the less convinced I am about its severity. What I believe is happening to referees at this level, unfortunately, is that they're being encouraged not to see the wood for the trees. Atkinson's uncertainty about whether the elbow contact made the challenge careless/reckless/excessively forceful may have persuaded him to call it (just about) legal to save himself the trouble of that distinction.
On a separate note, it sounds like concussion procedures were correctly implemented, for which the officials and coaching staff deserve credit after recent events.
I'm not sure I agree with the red card; if you consider his movement he hits Bellerin as he comes down from the jump. He jumped towards the ball earlier and reached higher first, Bellerin was late and therefore i believe the injury while it looks nasty does not warrant a foul as the movement seemed natural.
2nd String Ref
Member
It looked to be no foul in real time when I watched the match. Just two players going for the same ball but Bellerin getting there later than Alonso and unfortunately injuring himself due to his committment to defending (no comment on some of the other Arsenal defenders commitment on the day).
The replay does show Alonso putting an arm up to fend off Bellerin, or protect himself, but from almost any angle it is very hard to spot at real speed.
The pundits seem to be split 50/50 on it. Even Conte said something like it wasn't a foul in England, but was a foul in Italy.
And yes, very pleasing to see concussion protocols used properly. We need more of that on TV matches so that it filters down to all levels.
The replay does show Alonso putting an arm up to fend off Bellerin, or protect himself, but from almost any angle it is very hard to spot at real speed.
The pundits seem to be split 50/50 on it. Even Conte said something like it wasn't a foul in England, but was a foul in Italy.
And yes, very pleasing to see concussion protocols used properly. We need more of that on TV matches so that it filters down to all levels.
Mooseybaby
Retired big bad baldy in all black!
Naturally as a Chelsea fan, obviously delighted a foul wasn't given.
I have seen the replay about 50 times and still not convinced either way. There was an earlier elbow into Azpilicueta's face near half way that a was given as a foul, no card shown. Foul or not, no way is Alonso's challenge a red card.
I have seen the replay about 50 times and still not convinced either way. There was an earlier elbow into Azpilicueta's face near half way that a was given as a foul, no card shown. Foul or not, no way is Alonso's challenge a red card.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
You can clearly see that his elbow has already made contact with Bellerin before the ball makes contact with his head......he didn't catch him on the way down at all......he caught him with a leading elbow on the way into the challenge.
Dangerous and no regard for the safety of his opponent. Red Card.
Very very simple decision, that was got very wrong on the day.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Jumped in with a leading elbow at the opponent's head - perhaps not deliberately (although perhaps it was; I don't really care). I genuinely can't imagine how anybody could consider this to be less than reckless. Early shower for me - I can't fathom this not being a foul on any planet.
As part of jumping for a header he ran across, at pace, and elbowed his opponent in the face.
Whether you think the arm was part of the natural jumping movement (which t wasn't, given how often the same challenge is executed without somebody elbowed in the face) or not is irrelevant; if you can't commit a challenge without fouling somebody then that doesn't give you permission to then commit the challenge with the foul. If you can't make the jump without the elbow to the face then you don't get to make the jump.
He has very clearly committed a foul; I honestly don't see a debate on that one, and his manner has quite clearly acted without due regard to his opponent's welfare - but IMO, the nature of the challenge is definitely excessive force and endangering the opponent's safety.
Leading elbow to the head with a jump made and quite a bit of pace across the field is a definite red card.
As part of jumping for a header he ran across, at pace, and elbowed his opponent in the face.
Whether you think the arm was part of the natural jumping movement (which t wasn't, given how often the same challenge is executed without somebody elbowed in the face) or not is irrelevant; if you can't commit a challenge without fouling somebody then that doesn't give you permission to then commit the challenge with the foul. If you can't make the jump without the elbow to the face then you don't get to make the jump.
He has very clearly committed a foul; I honestly don't see a debate on that one, and his manner has quite clearly acted without due regard to his opponent's welfare - but IMO, the nature of the challenge is definitely excessive force and endangering the opponent's safety.
Leading elbow to the head with a jump made and quite a bit of pace across the field is a definite red card.
SM
The avuncular one
This isn't even a foul for me. Great jump by attacker, unfortunate outcome for the defender, sadly, it happens. Arms seem natural position for the jump, got higher and got there first. Goal stands.
Could be argued Bellerin jumps up into alonso
Could be argued Bellerin jumps up into alonso
Suarez - looked to see where the opponent was, smacked him in the face!! Clear red. He is a nutter
No foul for me, not a deliberate elbow as arms and hands are where I'd expect them to be when jumping to head the ball like that.
Padfoot, you are outvoted on this one but still maintain anyone that disagrees with you should hand in their whistles. You really need to stop being so judgemental, as, believe it or not (and I know that may be difficult), you aren't always right.
In the image that you have shown Alonso's arm isn't in any kind of unnatural position, he hasn't swung an arm, and any player jumping for a ball like that can be expected to have his arm in that position. I wouldn't disagree with a foul, but a red card for that is frankly laughable, even in continental Europe that wouldn't be a red card and in England there is no chance of that being given.
In the image that you have shown Alonso's arm isn't in any kind of unnatural position, he hasn't swung an arm, and any player jumping for a ball like that can be expected to have his arm in that position. I wouldn't disagree with a foul, but a red card for that is frankly laughable, even in continental Europe that wouldn't be a red card and in England there is no chance of that being given.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Deliberate isn't required for a foul. Careless, Reckless or Excessive force is
It's not DHB - why are we talking about natural position? You can commit a foul while being in a perfectly natural position. You can commit SFP while going into a challenge in a natural manner. While we may consider a swinging arm or other signs of intent (a fools errand, given many players are exceptional at making filthy challenges look completely accidental), we need to be careful to avoid 'tickbox' refereeing where we get guidelines confused with essential criteria. A swinging arm is not a prerequisite for a foul
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I think the lack of a swinging arm or "pointed" elbow immediately rules out a red card for me (sorry Padfoot!).
However, I think you can definitely sell the foul, and probably a yellow as well. The player is going for the header, but he's done so in a pretty reckless manner and clattered the opponent in the process.
However, I think you can definitely sell the foul, and probably a yellow as well. The player is going for the header, but he's done so in a pretty reckless manner and clattered the opponent in the process.
A Freethinker
RefChat Addict
GraemeS so if I run at an opponent with a straight forearm smash into the bridge of his nose, because there is no swing or pointed elbow it's not a foul? He leads with his arm, he makes contact with the opponent long before the ball arrives and smashes his elbow into his head! The only thing that saves him here is his hand is open and not a clenched fist. Foul minimum....can argue about card colour willing to accept arguments but it is a foul and I would agree with Padfoot
