Advantage

[Padfoot]

I referee grass roots Padfoot, just as most on here do. The occasions where I've seen it's beneficial to play advantage have been fairly numerous - certainly more than 1% at any rate.
I've had more players moan at me for "blowing too early ref" far more than I have complaining about playing the advantage.
As for the bit about the degree of ability being linked to the benefits of the advantage call - that's just your opinion. Personal skill levels in attack or defence have little to do with why or when advantage should be played. Unless of course you are constantly encountering matches where there is a huge gulf in class between both teams?
Finally, "Experience and knowledge trumps perception and understanding every time!" Really? So you reckon a 42 year old Level 7 referee who's been at that level for 10 years is a better ref than a 23 year old Level 4 then? The FA would disagree with you.....

And the FA would be wrong......as can be seen regularly throughout the country when watching the over promoted young referees struggling because they have been pushed too far too quick because the FA have a hard on for 'youth'.

And if you believe that player ability isn't a consideration when it comes to advantage you need to rethink.

Players will always moan about blowing too early....because in their sad deluded little minds there was never a shred of doubt that they were going to go past those 3 defenders and slam the shot into the top corner past a despairing keeper.....whereas those of us who live in the real world knew that they were going to take a stupendously poor touch sending the ball 25 yards in front of them which a defender smashes upfield prompting the now very much realised attacker to scream at you 'any chance ref?'.....

Your match control is much less at risk by playing little or none advantage than it is if you try to find them.

As I said, unless you are refereeing semi-pro or above its largely a colossal waste of time...just give the FK.

 

[DanRicketts]

It would appear Advantage is the most confusing area with a lot of different opinion!

I'm looking forward to my rugby union referee course in a couple of weeks as Advantage is a big part of the game, based on a the idea of "materiality". I.e. is the foul play stopping the flow of the game, does it stop the opposition from playing, is it dangerous. Rugby union could stop every few seconds if this were the case so it has a very clear framework for how to play advantage.

Soccer is very much down to us and often we're damned if we do or don't! I wish that this advice was consistently given to refs at all levels not just 4 and above through referee associations. It would make our lives at grassroots so much easier if what happened on tele was what happened for us!

 

[Russell Jones]

I referee grass roots Padfoot, just as most on here do. The occasions where I've seen it's beneficial to play advantage have been fairly numerous - certainly more than 1% at any rate.
I've had more players moan at me for "blowing too early ref" far more than I have complaining about playing the advantage.
As for the bit about the degree of ability being linked to the benefits of the advantage call - that's just your opinion. Personal skill levels in attack or defence have little to do with why or when advantage should be played. Unless of course you are constantly encountering matches where there is a huge gulf in class between both teams?
Finally, "Experience and knowledge trumps perception and understanding every time!" Really? So you reckon a 42 year old Level 7 referee who's been at that level for 10 years is a better ref than a 23 year old Level 4 then? The FA would disagree with you.....

Kes, I find myself totally agreeing with your first paragraph above and taking serious issue with the second . The art of a good advantage (at ANY level of football) is IMO one of the things that separates good referees from less good. Obviously, at grassroots levels where skill levels are lower, you need to be more selective in when you choose to play it .. but a well chosen advantage can still be very well received, add to players' enjoyment and a game changer for the positive.
On the second point, I think it's really unhelpful for both you and @Padfoot to take such entrenched positions. A 23 year old Level 4 may or may not be a better referee than a highly experienced Level 7. Obviously the L4 has proved his abilities to the satisfaction of numerous assessors and therefore justified his ability to referee at higher levels (though I have some sympathy for the view that some younger referees are pushed too fast, equally I've been lucky enough to assist some cracking young L4s). However I've also seen some great L7s who (for their own good reasons) have decided that promotion is not for them .. but their experience delivers great match control and an enjoyable game for all. Surely life would be better if we all respected both those who choose to push for promotion and also those happy to support the game for a long period at more junior levels?

 

[Kes]

On the second point, I think it's really unhelpful for both you and @Padfoot to take such entrenched positions. A 23 year old Level 4 may or may not be a better referee than a highly experienced Level 7. Obviously the L4 has proved his abilities to the satisfaction of numerous assessors and therefore justified his ability to referee at higher levels (though I have some sympathy for the view that some younger referees are pushed too fast, equally I've been lucky enough to assist some cracking young L4s). However I've also seen some great L7s who (for their own good reasons) have decided that promotion is not for them .. but their experience delivers great match control and an enjoyable game for all. Surely life would be better if we all respected both those who choose to push for promotion and also those happy to support the game for a long period at more junior levels?

For what it's worth mate, I kind of agree with you. I'm not for one minute suggesting it's that black and white, I just wanted to make the point to Meldrew there in the most obvious way I could.
"Experience and knowledge" are not the gauge by which progression to ever higher levels of football is made. Rather it's the other way around, rightly or wrongly. Perception, understanding of a situation and your general skill in interpreting that situation prior to making decisions is what gets people through promotion assessments and onto higher levels of football to referee.
Of course I respect all levels, hell, I'm only a Level 6 myself at the age of 49!! I however don't consider that my seniority in years or confident physical demeanour which is borne out of those years, necessarily makes me as good a ref as the young level 4. He's proven his level, and thus gets to officiate in matches nobody would dream of appointing me to. That's the whole idea (hopefully). That was what I really meant Russell. Padders thinks that both I and the FA are wrong - that's fine.

 

[Padfoot]

Getting promoted, especially in the current climate, is much more about your age, making sure your face is seen in the right places and sucking up to the right people, than it is about your performance on the pitch.

Every marking season it is the same....the 'rising stars' never appointed to any 'problem' fixtures, the harder to please assessors never sent to their games, etc etc......

And that's an observation from both sides, inside looking out and outside looking in, over more seasons than I care to count!

 

[Kes]

Getting promoted, especially in the current climate, is much more about your age, making sure your face is seen in the right places and sucking up to the right people, than it is about your performance on the pitch.

Every marking season it is the same....the 'rising stars' never appointed to any 'problem' fixtures, the harder to please assessors never sent to their games, etc etc......

And that's an observation from both sides, inside looking out and outside looking in, over more seasons than I care to count!

I have no idea what level referee you are since you've elected to keep that a secret for some reason, and also no idea what your experience is so therefore can't refute anything you say Padders but you do seem to have a rather cynical (and at times, very amusing) view of the whole system? Is there anything positive you've experienced recently in the game? Genuine question.

 

[lincs22]

I don't like saying this, but I agree with @Padfoot for a change.

At grassroots, too many referees try and apply advantage (just to be pedantic - you don't play advantage).

Unless very well judged, no enhanced attacking potential will accrue, so no advantage occurs. Too often, young referees signal advantage for retention of possession (Which is NOT advantage...)

 

[Kes]

I don't like saying this, but I agree with @Padfoot for a change.

At grassroots, too many referees try and apply advantage (just to be pedantic - you don't play advantage).

Unless very well judged, no enhanced attacking potential will accrue, so no advantage occurs. Too often, young referees signal advantage for retention of possession (Which is NOT advantage...)

I referee grass roots level and I'm not young.
If playing advantage wasn't considered a normal part of grass roots refereeing - then why has the use of it (or not) always been alluded to in every assessment I've had so far (5 in all)??
If the committing of a foul doesn't actually stop the player or play continuing in an attacking thrust then surely there is no reason to blow your whistle and stop the game? (unless of course you feel an instant card is in order). We're talking about advantage here - not "Oh he hasn't fallen over so no need to blow". The youngsters you assess might wave it on too often for your liking, but don't make the mistake of thinking that all of us at grass roots have no idea what the advantage rule is and when it's use is inappropriate. I'm in the same corner as Russell on this one. There's nearly always at least one opportunity to correctly play advantage in practically every game I referee. I'm shocked that anybody could genuinely think that there isn't.

 

[Padfoot]

I have no idea what level referee you are since you've elected to keep that a secret for some reason, and also no idea what your experience is so therefore can't refute anything you say Padders but you do seem to have a rather cynical (and at times, very amusing) view of the whole system? Is there anything positive you've experienced recently in the game? Genuine question.

In terms of referee development, no, there is nothing positive that I have seen over the last few years let alone recently.

But there are positives within the 'game'.....I am very fortunate to work with some truly committed, talented and inspiring young players, and coaches.
And I even sometimes come away from a middle with a sense of satisfaction but then I am picking and choosing the games I do these days quite carefully......I really don't have the capacity to deal with the moronic typical grassroots player that wants to argue every decision or kick lumps out of their opposition.....my card hand tends to spring into action a lot lot sooner these days.

The reason I don't publicise my level or experience is because too many people will look at that first and it colours their perception of everything you say or so going forwards.....much like the idea that a 21 yr old level 4 must be a better ref than a 45 yr old level 7.....simply because people focus on the level before anything else.

 

[Kes]

The reason I don't publicise my level or experience is because too many people will look at that first and it colours their perception of everything you say or so going forwards.....much like the idea that a 21 yr old level 4 must be a better ref than a 45 yr old level 7.....simply because people focus on the level before anything else.

Odd view to me.
I joined this refereeing forum to exchange opinion, gain knowledge and maybe impart some as well. I didn't join the forum in order to be held up or perceived in a certain way. I've not been a member here long, but even I can already see that it's what a person posts that colours the perception of other members - not what Level referee he is.
Why did you join?

 

[Russell Jones]

In terms of referee development, no, there is nothing positive that I have seen over the last few years let alone recently.

That's a real shame. As we've previously observed on this forum, referee development and indeed promotion criteria do vary significantly from county to county. Maybe I've just been very fortunate to have (thus far) had an extremely positive experience of the 7 to 5 promotion process over the last couple of years. Despite being twice the age of many of my peer group, I've had valuable advice from (many of) my assessors, helpful support from my appointments officers and good camaraderie when working as part of a team of three, whether in the middle or on the line.

Who knows, this may all change in a year or two when hopefully further promotions will be via the FA rather than the county .. if I become cynical and jaundiced with the whole process I'll be sure to let you all know

 

[Charlie Jones]

just keeping possession isn't an advantage? id say it is ... look on it that if you blow for the FK then that gives the opposition time to reposition and get in a better defensive position ... all of a sudden there is the same if not less opportunity to gain from that (depending where on the pitch it is)

the rest of this debate is boring ...

 

[DB]

I think that regardless of what level you play at, the advantage can be extremely useful! I've played at both junior and senior standard and have always appreciated the advantage rule. I'm a bit of a speedy guy so when I get hit, I get straight back up and run.... If the referee was to blow (without playing advantage) each time I got wiped out, I'd soon get annoyed and question his ability to read and understand the game!

A free kick, sometimes is more of a disadvantage, especially if you are on the counter! Even in 5 aside, advantage is used and is extremely useful! I think that anyone that says advantage is not useful at the grass-roots level is talking out of their hoop; if they've played football before, my guess is that they play across the defensive line and therefore the inability to switch on to the advantage being played has resulted in them looking red-faced on a few occasions!

If it is applied correctly, regardless of whether its a youth game, a bottom division Saturday side or a Sunday side fresh from the pub, the advantage being played can be a very effective tool. If you're someone that doesn't like to (or agree with) playing the advantage, everyone on the field will soon get bored of the dulsit 180db tone coming from your mouth every few minutes!!

 

[Padfoot]

I think that regardless of what level you play at, the advantage can be extremely useful! I've played at both junior and senior standard and have always appreciated the advantage rule. I'm a bit of a speedy guy so when I get hit, I get straight back up and run.... If the referee was to blow (without playing advantage) each time I got wiped out, I'd soon get annoyed and question his ability to read and understand the game!

A free kick, sometimes is more of a disadvantage, especially if you are on the counter! Even in 5 aside, advantage is used and is extremely useful! I think that anyone that says advantage is not useful at the grass-roots level is talking out of their hoop; if they've played football before, my guess is that they play across the defensive line and therefore the inability to switch on to the advantage being played has resulted in them looking red-faced on a few occasions!

If it is applied correctly, regardless of whether its a youth game, a bottom division Saturday side or a Sunday side fresh from the pub, the advantage being played can be a very effective tool. If you're someone that doesn't like to (or agree with) playing the advantage, everyone on the field will soon get bored of the dulsit 180db tone coming from your mouth every few minutes!!

And you'd soon get cautioned as well!

But you're missing the essential point......no matter what deluded opinions players may have about their own ability, the fact is that in 99% of potential advantage situations in grassroots football, the real advantage never actually occurs either due to lack of player ability or the misconception from the referee that they have to play advantages so end up making poor choices.
This will inevitably lead to players asking for the FK after they have played a poor pass, miscontrolled a ball etc....which when you don't give it because you played your perceived advantage just winds them up and starts to chip away at your match control.

Safer not to play the advantage unless it is one of those 1% occasions.

Players will always believe that they are better than they actually are.....and will always get frustrated when they mess up after being given what you might think was an ok advantage....who are they going to take that frustration out on? Especially when you then decline their request for the FK instead?

Forget thinking like a player if you are refereeing....and forget thinking like a referee if you are playing.....you'll only end up in trouble.

 

[Charlie Jones]

did you know almost 67% of statistics are made up!

 

[Kes]

did you know almost 67% of statistics are made up!

Yeah, but only 32% of people believe that......

 

[DB]

And you'd soon get cautioned as well!

What for?

If you are going to blow each time a player has been fouled and not play an advantage because you dont believe they have the "required skill level" (Which I think is nonsense), you will soon be out of breath, the local wildlife would have emigrated due to the annoying high pitched tone coming from the pitch every few minutes and you'll have a number of players questioning your ability at handling a game. I know I certainly would.

I think I'll just agree to disagree here. You seem rather bitter about the concept.

 

[Charlie Jones]

agreed - id get ticked off with a referee that kept blowing relentlessly for every foul rather than play some sort of advantage

 

[Alex71]

If the match needs it - and even then only for certain periods of the match - e.g. high levels of misconduct, fouls, etc. - then I would be blowing for everything ... but yeah - give every game the chance to find it's own level - which includes playing an advantage wherever it helps the game

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Alternatively don't play advantage for anything other than someone about to tap into an empty net and you avoid all the complications.

Vastly overrated and not really useful until you start reffing at a higher level.

Causes referees more problems than it solves at grassroots level.....

Totally agree.

I'd disagree if you don't mind me saying. If you've got a referee that understands what an advantage is from a players point of view, even at grassroots level it can be very beneficial. It's about perception and understanding

You're right Dave but the vast majority of "advantages" I see, even at L3/4 are simply retaining possession in a poor field position with few options available to advance on goal.

agreed - id get ticked off with a referee that kept blowing relentlessly for every foul rather than play some sort of advantage

Well stop committing fouls then!