RefSix

Advantage and offside

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#21
So here is how it should work. The team should be in a better position compared to a free kick (benefits is the word used in law) for you to play advantage. If you are not sure, you wait a few seconds to see. So if you played advantage that means they were in a better position, if they stuffed up after that, then its their fault and by bringing the ball back you are giving them two bites at the cherry.

In other words, playing advantage doesn't mean you are waiting to see if they are better off, it means they are already better off.
I agree with that logic too. That train of thought also (I think) lays waste to the notion that you can't/shouldn't play advantage unless it's in the attacking third of the field. A quick break from inside your own half is often more advantageous to you than a free kick (with the opposition having time to pull everybody back defensively) would be. Conversely, having a free kick (with a chance for a measured and unhurried shot at goal) just outside the penalty area is often better for you than allowing open play to run and you flap and fluff the chance the ref has given you by playing "advantage". Each situation is different.

Horses for courses .... :cool:
 

spuddy1878

Well-Known Member
#22
I had an incident yesterday where a right back roughly on the corner of the penalty area was tripped and both him and the offender went down, the ball went forward a few yards to his team mate and they were on the attack (granted only 30 yards from their own goal)

They lost possession due to a poor pass and the manager complained there was no advantage.

I think i got it right, in my opinion they could have had a free kick 20 yards from their own goal and (a point thats possibly been missed) allowed all the opposition to get back behind the ball or a promising attack with 3/4 of the opposition out of the game (i think thats a key factor also)
 

Tino Best

RefChat Addict
#23
If you do play advantage they want the foul if you blow for a foul they want the advantage! But I have had 5 goals this season from advantages I have played.
 
#25
The problem is, defending teams like to stop the game from flowing and disrupt the play with niggly little fouls. IMO, if we keep giving free kicks for these it plays right into their hands

guys, in this instance, if Spuddy had not said a word or given any signals, would you have gone back for the free kick ?
 

one

RefChat Addict
#26
guys, in this instance, if Spuddy had not said a word or given any signals, would you have gone back for the free kick ?
I think you may be missing the point. The moment you think they are better off with playing on (even if half a second after the foul) you must signal advantage. If you don't you are subconsciously planning to give them two byte at the cherry.

So given that spuddy thought they are in a better position if he played on had a signal not been given immidiately a mistake is already made. If you bring play back after the poor pass it would be a second mistake. But due to the first mistake no matter what you do after the poor pass, it wood be a hard sale as both sides have a legitimate reason to complain. If you don't bring play back the attacking team complains there were no advantage (you didn't signal), and if you bring play back the defending team would be asking how many chances are you giving them (in effect you give them two).

All this works differently in England lower levels though so not sure how it works there.
 
#27
I had an incident yesterday where a right back roughly on the corner of the penalty area was tripped and both him and the offender went down, the ball went forward a few yards to his team mate and they were on the attack (granted only 30 yards from their own goal)

They lost possession due to a poor pass and the manager complained there was no advantage.

I think i got it right, in my opinion they could have had a free kick 20 yards from their own goal and (a point thats possibly been missed) allowed all the opposition to get back behind the ball or a promising attack with 3/4 of the opposition out of the game (i think thats a key factor also)
Context though... in a niggly game, tight game, or in the middle of the game, or if they are problem players, then surely no advantage... in added time with the defenders chading the game, much more likely to play advantage.

I think a reason that advantage outside the attacking third is so hard to deal with is because that’s when the waiting time is tricky... riding the next tackle, the pass landing... as above the good book gives great guidance.

Bonus: my fave local ref at the mo, at midfield advantage situations, he puts his arms in front of his chest pointing up, so they are ready to come out and signal faster. Big guy so it’s also clear to e.g. ARs. Nice touch.
 

spuddy1878

Well-Known Member
#28
Context is very important i agree, if you were a manager say 1-0 up under the cosh with ten men and you're defender gets fouled on the corner of the box, id prefer a free kick all day over the advantage to slow the game down
 
#29
Context is very important i agree, if you were a manager say 1-0 up under the cosh with ten men and you're defender gets fouled on the corner of the box, id prefer a free kick all day over the advantage to slow the game down
but...if you were a manager say 1-0 down, and you're defender gets fouled on the corner of the box, you'd prefer a chance to keep the move flowing, even if it did mean you may lose possession at some point.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#30
I had an incident yesterday where a right back roughly on the corner of the penalty area was tripped and both him and the offender went down, the ball went forward a few yards to his team mate and they were on the attack (granted only 30 yards from their own goal)

They lost possession due to a poor pass and the manager complained there was no advantage.

I think i got it right, in my opinion they could have had a free kick 20 yards from their own goal and (a point thats possibly been missed) allowed all the opposition to get back behind the ball or a promising attack with 3/4 of the opposition out of the game (i think thats a key factor also)
Obviously YHTBT but in that situation, it may be safer to give the team the free kick as soon as the foul is committed. That poor pass potentially results in the attacking team in possession 30 yards out with the opposition right back on the ground.
 

Justylove

Well-Known Member
#31
Obviously YHTBT but in that situation, it may be safer to give the team the free kick as soon as the foul is committed. That poor pass potentially results in the attacking team in possession 30 yards out with the opposition right back on the ground.
At the top levels of the game, players have the ability to turn possession in their own half into a meaningful attacking opportunity within a couple of well placed passes. At the grassroots level of the game (and even up to Semi Pro), whilst many of the players think they are Pirlo or Messi, the reality they are not. If you think about all of the things that could mean that the team fouled doesn't end up with an advantage after all whilst in their own half:

1) How many defending players between the ball and the goal?
2) How many attacking players versus defending players? - if everyone has gone up and left 1 plus the keeper back and the team that was fouled is breaking with 3 players, thats very different to having the back 4 camped on halfway
3) What has to happen to make the advantage real - if the right back has to play a pin point 40 yard pass in behind the defender for the striker to run on to, control and get in on goal, what is the likelihood of that happening based on the skill levels of the players - Pirlo to Messi i'd be thinking the chances are high - Big John to Kebab Lover Kev on a Sunday morning, i'd have a whole lot less confidence?

You'll likely get a whole load more grief from players for playing an advantage which comes to nothing, than for blowing for a free kick and letting them take their chances with a dead ball.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#32
At the top levels of the game, players have the ability to turn possession in their own half into a meaningful attacking opportunity within a couple of well placed passes. At the grassroots level of the game (and even up to Semi Pro), whilst many of the players think they are Pirlo or Messi, the reality they are not. If you think about all of the things that could mean that the team fouled doesn't end up with an advantage after all whilst in their own half:
This is all a very fair point, but I think you can't ignore the lower quality of defenders as well.

Attackers at the top level can create an attack with a few well placed passes - but also, they have to have the quality to manage a few well-placed passes or the defenders will snuff out the chance. Attackers at grassroots might not have quite the same precision passing ability - but they also have the option of lumping it long and there being a fairly decent chance that the defender will let a ball bounce or skid off their head when a PL defender would just sort that situation out.

I think this aspect is often not considered in discussions of advantage at grassroots level. A hoof forward is actually a much more potent weapon to your average Sunday league side, and so potentially even if that's all they can manage, that could be enough to create a promising attack if the defender messes it up.
 

Justylove

Well-Known Member
#33
This is all a very fair point, but I think you can't ignore the lower quality of defenders as well.

Attackers at the top level can create an attack with a few well placed passes - but also, they have to have the quality to manage a few well-placed passes or the defenders will snuff out the chance. Attackers at grassroots might not have quite the same precision passing ability - but they also have the option of lumping it long and there being a fairly decent chance that the defender will let a ball bounce or skid off their head when a PL defender would just sort that situation out.

I think this aspect is often not considered in discussions of advantage at grassroots level. A hoof forward is actually a much more potent weapon to your average Sunday league side, and so potentially even if that's all they can manage, that could be enough to create a promising attack if the defender messes it up.
For me it's all about risk versus reward. Yes there is a chance that a hoof forward can get the striker in on goal from 20 yards inside their own half BUT that's reliant upon the the defender making a clean contact with the ball - I've seen defenders miskick or slice the ball, kick it out of play, overhit it straight to the keepor or kick it straight to an attacker from a position of no pressure inside their own half.

Safe refereeing says, give the FK, get on with the game, you might get one or two players have a little moan in passing, but if you play advantage, the defender kicks the ball straight to an opposing player who then scores or sets up a goal, you're in a whole world of pain from a match control perspective.

If you are being observed, the return for playing an advantage deep in the defending teams half on the off chance they might create something is far outweighed by the potential to drop marks if it doesn't come off, certainly at 5-4 and above where use of advantage is a specific competency
 
#34
A hoof forward is actually a much more potent weapon to your average Sunday league side, and so potentially even if that's all they can manage, that could be enough to create a promising attack if the defender messes it up.
What? You can't play advantage on the basis that after the team with possession gives up that possession by hoofing it away, they might then get it back and then it might just end up in an advantageous situation. That's so, so far away from the guideline of "an immediate, promising attack," as far as I'm concerned, as to almost completely rule it out as a potential advantage call.
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#35
What? You can't play advantage on the basis that after the team with possession gives up that possession by hoofing it away, they might then get it back and then it might just end up in an advantageous situation. That's so, so far away from the guideline of "an immediate, promising attack," as far as I'm concerned, as to almost completely rule it out as a potential advantage call.
Not what I said. As a general rule, if a player is caught late and the match temperature allows, I'll almost always look to see what the next touch is (or is likely to be) before blowing up.

Therefore, if a defender has cleared the ball long and is then caught late, I'll look to see where the ball is going before blowing my whistle. And if I look and see a defender desperately backpedalling or looking otherwise uncomfortable with a ball coming towards them and an attacker in the vicinity, or if the ball is in between an attacker and a defender, I might at least wait and see where the first touch goes. As a result of this approach, I allow for the (sometimes quite high) possibility of a defensive mistake that leads to a chance.
 
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