Abused as assistant

[Ori]

Your job as referee is to apply law and competition rules, not what you feel they should be. Starting to adjust rules to fit what you feel they should be is a slippery slope - even where this example is relatively harmless (and will make your life more difficult rather than other officials), it's the start of the path that leads to statements like "I don't do sin bins" and other LWR behaviour.

I'd also caution you against getting correlation and causation mixed up. An assistant may be biased and an assistant may be coaching from the line. Those are two unconnected actions - a biased assistant should of course be removed, but assuming that coaching means they will therefore make biased decisions is an unfair logical leap.

My only real experience with this was quite the opposite - I recall one assistant who was definitely overdoing his coaching. But when the ball was played through and the opponents scored, he kept the flag down and shouted to the defence "I told you that you needed to be a yard higher up!". Coaching to me implies someone who is paying attention, which is infinitely better than the type of CAR who just wandered around behind play and sticks the flag up without thinking.

Quoting OldNavyRef

"Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed" Law 1.9 does add weight to this. 'only one person at a time is authorised to convey tactical instructions from the technical area'. But in the opening paragraph of 1.9 it says this applies to grounds with a technical area 'The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated sitting area for team officials, substitutes and substituted players as outlined below'. Which most grassroot grounds don't. I think for me, when paired with CARs, this falls in to the 'Spirit of the Game' area.

 

[GraemeS]

And what does the law say when there are no technical areas? Absolutely nothing in my recollection - which means if you're adding restrictions along those lines, that's exactly of inappropriate law adjustment I mean.

Now, if your league guidelines do actually mandate this then I retract some of my previous concerns. But you still need to be sure of that (which you didn't seem to be earlier), and also be aware that it is a league-specific rule, so not something you're automatically entitled to apply if you do a variety of leagues or find yourself moving in future.

Regarding your final point:

On a more realistic level, coaching from the line agitates the parents and creates even more animosity.
I start off every brief by explaining that I don’t allow coaching from the lines.

So do a lot of things we do as referee, starting with the point where we blow the whistle to kick off. I'm not personally in the habit of deliberately adjusting my decisions to try and keep sidelines cool.

And again, a bizarre choice of phrase here, to frame it as "I" don't allow this. Either the league doesn't allow it (in which case, say that), or you are choosing not to allow it, in which case we're back to the point where you're choosing to add in restrictions. And you're also choosing to make yourself the focal point of this ruling, when it would be much simpler to just remind them of the league rules.

 

[Ori]

And what does the law say when there are no technical areas? Absolutely nothing in my recollection - which means if you're adding restrictions along those lines, that's exactly of inappropriate law adjustment I mean.

Now, if your league guidelines do actually mandate this then I retract some of my previous concerns. But you still need to be sure of that (which you didn't seem to be earlier), and also be aware that it is a league-specific rule, so not something you're automatically entitled to apply if you do a variety of leagues or find yourself moving in future.

Regarding your final point:

So do a lot of things we do as referee, starting with the point where we blow the whistle to kick off. I'm not personally in the habit of deliberately adjusting my decisions to try and keep sidelines cool.

And again, a bizarre choice of phrase here, to frame it as "I" don't allow this. Either the league doesn't allow it (in which case, say that), or you are choosing not to allow it, in which case we're back to the point where you're choosing to add in restrictions. And you're also choosing to make yourself the focal point of this ruling, when it would be much simpler to just remind them of the league rules.

Not sure we are going to agree.
As a point of reference the game I was referring to had 2 clear dug outs and technical areas so the rule would have applied and I would argue that going along with the law, even if there isn’t a technical area, the spirit of the game would follow that we limit coaching from the line.

Going along with the spirit of game, if someone is appointed as a CAR, they should just do that role.

 

[JamesL]

Quoting OldNavyRef

"Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed" Law 1.9 does add weight to this. 'only one person at a time is authorised to convey tactical instructions from the technical area'. But in the opening paragraph of 1.9 it says this applies to grounds with a technical area 'The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated sitting area for team officials, substitutes and substituted players as outlined below'. Which most grassroot grounds don't. I think for me, when paired with CARs, this falls in to the 'Spirit of the Game' area.

Personally think you are shoe horning here.
If they are not conveying tactical instructions at the same time, and there is no technical area there really is no basis in law to stop it.
If they are both instructing at the same time then you could have a case but saying law/the spirit of the law prohibits it is well wide of the mark imo.
That said, in real world, it happens ALL the time where multiple occupant's are conveying tactical instructions and I honestly can't remember a time anybody did anything to stop it from grassroots to the elite.

 

[george.g]

That said, in real world, it happens ALL the time where multiple occupant's are conveying tactical instructions and I honestly can't remember a time anybody did anything to stop it from grassroots to the elite.

Pick your battles, and that is picking a battle nobody wants to have, match or team officials

 

[Ori]

Let’s agree to disagree on this one and remain friends.

Ps. Nothing wrong with a good discussion.

 

[RustyRef]

Let’s agree to disagree on this one and remain friends.

Ps. Nothing wrong with a good discussion.

There's no disagreeing to disagree here, you are, unfortunately, completely wrong. If you believe that I am wrong in this and you are right, in that CARs are not allowed to do any level of coaching, then I would suggest that you quote the part of law that backs this up. And not the part about technical areas as we all know that almost all grass roots games in England have no technical areas.

 

[Ori]

There's no disagreeing to disagree here, you are, unfortunately, completely wrong. If you believe that I am wrong in this and you are right, in that CARs are not allowed to do any level of coaching, then I would suggest that you quote the part of law that backs this up. And not the part about technical areas as we all know that almost all grass roots games in England have no technical areas.

Well I think you are wrong as we still have to officiate within the spirit of the game and since there may not be a technical area then the spirit of the law dictates that there shouldn’t be any more coaching anyway.

I would also add that when someone is an assistant referee they have an exclusive role.
By your logic and understanding, if a coach is reffing the game there is no law that says he can’t coach his own team from the centre. Would you accept that?

 

[RustyRef]

Well I think you are wrong as we still have to officiate within the spirit of the game and since there may not be a technical area then the spirit of the law dictates that there shouldn’t be any more coaching anyway.

I would also add that when someone is an assistant referee they have an exclusive role.
By your logic and understanding, if a coach is reffing the game there is no law that says he can’t coach his own team from the centre. Would you accept that?

It doesn't matter what we accept, if a coach is refereeing his own team then who is stopping him from coaching? Back in the day when the referee didn't turn up I played and refereed at the same time, and everyone accepted that as it was the only real option. Very odd situation, but we only had 10 players as it was, the opposition only had 11, so it was the best outcome.

I come back to, show me where it is written down, and therefore enforceable, that a CAR is not allowed to coach at the same time. If you can do that I will absolutely concede that you are right and I am wrong, if you can't them I'm afraid it is the other way round.

 

[Ori]

Show me where it says I can’t coach from the middle?
I stick to my understanding that you shouldn’t be coaching as an assistant or as a centre.
The coach in the dugout can bark his orders fine, but the assistant is the assistant and the ref can ref.

I’ve made my logic clear as per the rules quoted and given there may be occasions without a technical area, we should stick to the spirit of the game.

 

[RustyRef]

Show me where it says I can’t coach from the middle?
I stick to my understanding that you shouldn’t be coaching as an assistant or as a centre.
The coach in the dugout can bark his orders fine, but the assistant is the assistant and the ref can ref.

I’ve made my logic clear as per the rules quoted and given there may be occasions without a technical area, we should stick to the spirit of the game.

No, you haven't. At risk of repeating myself, show me the law or competition rule that says a CAR cannot coach. If you can't do that it doesn't matter how much "logic" you state, you will still be wrong.

 

[Ori]

No, you haven't. At risk of repeating myself, show me the law or competition rule that says a CAR cannot coach. If you can't do that it doesn't matter how much "logic" you state, you will still be wrong.

At the risk of repeating myself I’ve shown my logic in understanding the rules and the spirit of the game. There should be only one person coaching and yes that rule as stated requires a technical area, but by extension not having a technical area doesn’t suddenly allow a CAR to coach players. Certainly not in the spirit of the game and yes spirit of the game as mentioned in law 5

Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game' and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.

Ok. So are you also saying that a referee can coach at the same time? Tell me where in the rules it says he can’t? Or is that not in the spirit of the game?

 

[Joshref]

The abuse was 100% unacceptable but I’m not sure it was your place to tell him he wasn’t there to coach.

You are objectively wrong in regards to inability to coach and you seem to keep changing your story as to whether it’s League rules or your incorrect guidance.

A coach in junior football is dedicating their Sunday morning to turning up early, setting up the nets, planning tactics for a match and all the hassle that comes with little thanks but the reward of coaching. If they’re willing to also do me a favour by running the line I’m not gonna tell them off for coaching because they’re the only one that can coach.

Separate note, I still find it weird CARs call offsides in so many other areas. They don’t in West Riding, but when I moved up Newcastle for uni they were allowed to call for offsides. My CARs only call for ins and outs.

 

[Ori]

The abuse was 100% unacceptable but I’m not sure it was your place to tell him he wasn’t there to coach.

You are objectively wrong in regards to inability to coach and you seem to keep changing your story as to whether it’s League rules or your incorrect guidance.

A coach in junior football is dedicating their Sunday morning to turning up early, setting up the nets, planning tactics for a match and all the hassle that comes with little thanks but the reward of coaching. If they’re willing to also do me a favour by running the line I’m not gonna tell them off for coaching because they’re the only one that can coach.

Separate note, I still find it weird CARs call offsides in so many other areas. They don’t in West Riding, but when I moved up Newcastle for uni they were allowed to call for offsides. My CARs only call for ins and outs.

I would actually agree with you if a team had one coach and no dads are willing to run the line, and he does the line then I would agree that he should be able to coach. He is at a disadvantage as he can’t do his job.
However, if you have a coach and a dad is doing the line, then his job is to do the line and not advise his defence on when to push up and who is playing who onside.

I’m always shocked at how little game knowledge dads have on the offside rule. It’s so tricky to overrule them if you’re not in line with play and that isn’t possible if you’re trying to referee.
I always thank the dads for their help and majority do their best and try to be honest.

 

[GraemeS]

I don't really want to put myself in a position where a coach is forced to make a choice between running the line and coaching, because I think we all know which they will choose - and then we don't get CARs at all and everything becomes much harder.

Similarly, a dad's job is to be a dad - I don't think giving them a flag has any moral standing to immediately expect them to forget they are a dad. There are limits to what we can expect from volunteers, as long as they're putting in enough effort to be fair and be in the right place to do an effective job as AR, worrying about what they're doing with the rest of their mental energy is an overstep.

 

[Quarryref]

For me, this is about common sense, not reading between the lines of the LOTG, and a big part of it is context.

At the extremes ....

Down here, Step 7 leagues have CARs. No way would I allow a CAR at that level to direct his defence's offside line & I don't think the players would put up with it for long either. Same with the Step 5 league U18s. However, no problem with a bit of general encouragement or berating of his/her own players.

U11s a different story altogether....

 

[NOVARef]

No, you haven't. At risk of repeating myself, show me the law or competition rule that says a CAR cannot coach. If you can't do that it doesn't matter how much "logic" you state, you will still be wrong.

Question: Would your response change if it was not a club AR and it was a match with certified ARs? Thanks.

 

[Joshref]

I would actually agree with you if a team had one coach and no dads are willing to run the line, and he does the line then I would agree that he should be able to coach. He is at a disadvantage as he can’t do his job.
However, if you have a coach and a dad is doing the line, then his job is to do the line and not advise his defence on when to push up and who is playing who onside.

I’m always shocked at how little game knowledge dads have on the offside rule. It’s so tricky to overrule them if you’re not in line with play and that isn’t possible if you’re trying to referee.
I always thank the dads for their help and majority do their best and try to be honest.

Tbh with you, from my time as a coach, I hated it when parents would coach. Our club wanted parents to stay quiet during matches.

As a referee though that’s not my problem and it’s a separate issue to CARs coaching. For me, especially with my CARs only calling ins and outs, I don’t really care if they coach or not, and there’s certainly nowhere in LOTG that stops them from doing this

 

[Josh the referee]

Question: Would your response change if it was not a club AR and it was a match with certified ARs? Thanks.

Think that's a self-explanatory question really. Certified AR's should be neutral and appointed by League/CFA so should 100% not be doing any sort of coaching.

 

[Quarryref]

Question: Would your response change if it was not a club AR and it was a match with certified ARs? Thanks.

As per my previous response, I have a nuanced view on what I would and wouldn't allow that changes with the context of the game.

What I do disagree with is the argument that if it's not explicitly forbidden in the LOTG or competition rules, it's by definition allowed. Take that to the extreme and you end up in some very odd places.

Using my previous example of not allowing a CAR in a Step 7 game to manage the offside line, if ever challenged, Spirit of the Game is enough