The Ref Stop

Abused as assistant

O

Ori

Well-Known Member
I was a voluntary assistant today and ran the line for my sons u18 team.
Level 5 ref in the middle.

Thought he handled the game well when it flared up a bit. I would have carded the 2 coaches who came onto the pitch during the incident, but that’s pretty much the only thing I disagreed with. Was a good learning experience for me.

However, the linesman (dad) of the opposition was coaching from the line the whole match. Ref had a word a few times, but it was proper coaching advising on wall position and so on.

At the end of the match I politely told him that he isn’t there to coach. His reply to me was “f off you c4nt”.

Don’t think ref heard it, but I will report it.
After ref left, opposing manger went to home technical area and squared up to the coach who just politely asked him to leave his technical area. Some abuse followed with the manger just saying please leave my technical area.

I believe this is completely out of order.
 
The Ref Stop
Ori said:
I was a voluntary assistant today and ran the line for my sons u18 team.
Level 5 ref in the middle.

Thought he handled the game well when it flared up a bit. I would have carded the 2 coaches who came onto the pitch during the incident, but that’s pretty much the only thing I disagreed with. Was a good learning experience for me.

However, the linesman (dad) of the opposition was coaching from the line the whole match. Ref had a word a few times, but it was proper coaching advising on wall position and so on.

At the end of the match I politely told him that he isn’t there to coach. His reply to me was “f off you c4nt”.

Don’t think ref heard it, but I will report it.
After ref left, opposing manger went to home technical area and squared up to the coach who just politely asked him to leave his technical area. Some abuse followed with the manger just saying please leave my technical area.

I believe this is completely out of order.
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Sounds like the dad did not take the ref seriously.

If i have to intervene more than once then i would remove the assistant and ask for somebody else.
 
Refs attitude was very non confrontational which is fine I guess. His attitude was also that if he isn’t helping too much then he lets it slide.

While I may agree on an u12 match, not on an u18.
It also then makes it a grey area. Just say no coaching and that’s it. What’s too much? At one point he was advising them on the wall setup. Is that too much or just enough coaching.
 
Ori said:
Refs attitude was very non confrontational which is fine I guess. His attitude was also that if he isn’t helping too much then he lets it slide.

While I may agree on an u12 match, not on an u18.
It also then makes it a grey area. Just say no coaching and that’s it. What’s too much? At one point he was advising them on the wall setup. Is that too much or just enough coaching.
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I have no issue with the CAR coaching.

As long as they remain unbiased in their observations in role I won't detriment them for taking the flag.
 
OldNavyRef said:
I have no issue with the CAR coaching.

As long as they remain unbiased in their observations in role I won't detriment them for taking the flag.
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That’s not their role and is an unfair advantage coaching the defence.
It also highlights bias to me and it’s not in the spirit of the way things should be. Certainly shouldn’t be happening at u16 game let alone u18.
 
Ori said:
That’s not their role and is an unfair advantage coaching the defence.
It also highlights bias to me and it’s not in the spirit of the way things should be. Certainly shouldn’t be happening at u16 game let alone u18.
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Their role limitations is not really discussed in law. From what I can see.

So really it is up to the referee. I know some refs don't like them calling offsides.

I found this document that pretty much sums this up. https://www.thefa.com/-/media/cfa/g...instructions-for-club-assistant-referees.ashx

So again I respectfully disagree and as long as I think they are capable of multitasking their role, they can coach in my games.

Lets say the opposition coach chooses not to run the line, he can continue to coach his team from the sideline, giving a pretty nice overview of the full field, they are allowed to project their voice and give detailed instructions to his subs. So I fail to see the unfair advantage.

I will emphasis though, that if I feel the CAR is being biased in their calls, or is not dedicating enough attention to their CAR role, I'll ask them to change out or will let them know I have lost trust and go with my own calls.
 
Well, during the game, there was an incident and the assistant was telling the ref what he saw and couldn’t understand why he wouldn’t act on his words.
The ref explained that he isn’t impartial and hence he can’t take his word on these things.

So coaching on the line just highlights bias and shouldn’t be allowed and most leagues do state that coaching from the line is a no no.

I also believe you are not reading the rules correctly.
Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed. That’s in the rules by the simple fact that coaches are not allowed outside it! So a linesman coaching is bypassing these rules having nice easy access to the defence telling them when to push up for offside is a no no.
 
Ori said:
Well, during the game, there was an incident and the assistant was telling the ref what he saw and couldn’t understand why he wouldn’t act on his words.
The ref explained that he isn’t impartial and hence he can’t take his word on these things.

So coaching on the line just highlights bias and shouldn’t be allowed and most leagues do state that coaching from the line is a no no.

I also believe you are not reading the rules correctly.
Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed. That’s in the rules by the simple fact that coaches are not allowed outside it! So a linesman coaching is bypassing these rules having nice easy access to the defence telling them when to push up for offside is a no no.
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At the vast majority of grass roots games there are no technical areas though, so the coaches can go where they want.

The CARs are there to help you, and chances are they are going to be a parent, a partner, a friend, etc, and they usually aren't so much coaching as encouraging. If they are coaching the offside line then I think you have grounds to ask them not to, but I don't really see any regulation that prevents them from general coaching / encouragement. As a former coach I can say that unofficial coaching often does more harm than good anyway, as they end up blurting out things that aren't any way in line with the match strategy.
 
depends who is on the line I guess. Coaching from the offside line is not ok in my book.

Worse than that the foul abuse I got is 100% not acceptable.
 
Ori abuse is 100% unacceptable. Report it. Some people are just idiots. I support you 100% in this.

However, be careful with what you claim. "most leagues do state that coaching from the line is a no no". Well I am part of three leagues, and all three only state that clubs are required to provide a CAR. I also doubt you have access to "most leagues" CARs policy.

"coaching on the line just highlights bias and shouldn’t be allowed" I think all CARs should be presumed to have a biased opinion, because they are typically, subs, coaches and parents of a particular team. The referee always makes the final decision and may choose to use the CAR.

"there was an incident and the assistant was telling the ref what he saw" happens all the time to me. The explanation the ref gave in your example is adequate, as all the CAR is needed for is offsides and out of bounds or crossing the goal line. Should have been covered in the pre-match. I will typically run over to them for rapport reasons, but quickly explain that as they are not neutral, there is not much I can do with their angle.

"Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed" Law 1.9 does add weight to this. 'only one person at a time is authorised to convey tactical instructions from the technical area'. But in the opening paragraph of 1.9 it says this applies to grounds with a technical area 'The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated sitting area for team officials, substitutes and substituted players as outlined below'. Which most grassroot grounds don't. I think for me, when paired with CARs, this falls in to the 'Spirit of the Game' area.

As stated, in grassroots, most managers will roam around a little, as most of the technical area isn't clearly defined or even defined at all. If a manager at U18s level wants to position the wall from the touchline, fair play to them, as they will have a much worse angle than the goalkeeper.

The only advantage I can see is managing the offside line. No argument there. They are in a great position for it. However, some grounds I have been to have the technical areas fairly close to the corner flags. You wouldn't ask a manager, from within his technical area, not to shout at his defensive line.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
If it is reported via email, then the cub may be asked for their observations... more than one way to skin a cat as the old expression goes
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Possibly, but they can't put any weight on it being a referee who has reported in when they were acting in a club capacity. So if when asked for their observations they say it didn't happen there's nothing the CFA can do, and they are hardly like to admit to it having happened.
 
OldNavyRef said:
"Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed" Law 1.9 does add weight to this. 'only one person at a time is authorised to convey tactical instructions from the technical area'. But in the opening paragraph of 1.9 it says this applies to grounds with a technical area 'The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated sitting area for team officials, substitutes and substituted players as outlined below'. Which most grassroot grounds don't. I think for me, when paired with CARs, this falls in to the 'Spirit of the Game' area.
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In my experience it's pretty common in US leagues to limit coaches to 10 yards from midfield if a technical area is not marked. I like that rule. I like even better the tournament I do sometimes that requires the coaches (and all spectators!) to be on the end of the field the AR is not on.
 
socal lurker said:
In my experience it's pretty common in US leagues to limit coaches to 10 yards from midfield if a technical area is not marked. I like that rule. I like even better the tournament I do sometimes that requires the coaches (and all spectators!) to be on the end of the field the AR is not on.
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I've been on the line twice. Once on the far side. Such an enjoyable and relaxed side to be on. Then there was my second. On the technical area side. My lord. That was tough.
 
OldNavyRef said:
Ori abuse is 100% unacceptable. Report it. Some people are just idiots. I support you 100% in this.

However, be careful with what you claim. "most leagues do state that coaching from the line is a no no". Well I am part of three leagues, and all three only state that clubs are required to provide a CAR. I also doubt you have access to "most leagues" CARs policy.

"coaching on the line just highlights bias and shouldn’t be allowed" I think all CARs should be presumed to have a biased opinion, because they are typically, subs, coaches and parents of a particular team. The referee always makes the final decision and may choose to use the CAR.

"there was an incident and the assistant was telling the ref what he saw" happens all the time to me. The explanation the ref gave in your example is adequate, as all the CAR is needed for is offsides and out of bounds or crossing the goal line. Should have been covered in the pre-match. I will typically run over to them for rapport reasons, but quickly explain that as they are not neutral, there is not much I can do with their angle.

"Coaching outside the technical area is not allowed" Law 1.9 does add weight to this. 'only one person at a time is authorised to convey tactical instructions from the technical area'. But in the opening paragraph of 1.9 it says this applies to grounds with a technical area 'The technical area relates to matches played in stadiums with a designated sitting area for team officials, substitutes and substituted players as outlined below'. Which most grassroot grounds don't. I think for me, when paired with CARs, this falls in to the 'Spirit of the Game' area.

As stated, in grassroots, most managers will roam around a little, as most of the technical area isn't clearly defined or even defined at all. If a manager at U18s level wants to position the wall from the touchline, fair play to them, as they will have a much worse angle than the goalkeeper.

The only advantage I can see is managing the offside line. No argument there. They are in a great position for it. However, some grounds I have been to have the technical areas fairly close to the corner flags. You wouldn't ask a manager, from within his technical area, not to shout at his defensive line.
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This is a great response.
I think the biggest advantage is you have the coach I’m close to the middle of the park barking instructions and the assistant telling the defence to push up or telling a specific player he is playing everyone onside.
I always state at the start of the match to the dad doing the line, that I expect him to do a role and not coach. If he does it during the game, I will politely ask him to stop (in front of the coach) and say that if I catch him at it again, I will remove him and they won’t have an assistant as only I will call offsides. If that fails then I remove them. Obviously that will give me a bad review, but I feel strongly that I shouldn’t happen.

You’re right about the rule and technical in youth football and you often have 2 coaches shouting from the line instead of the permitted one, but that’s youth football. We don’t need a third on the line. ;)

Couple of weeks ago I had a young assistant who was a team mate who wasn’t playing (didn’t know that at the time). The bias was so bad. It was so obvious too and I had to overrule him so many times that it was embarrassing, yet the nerve of the guy to approach during the game to tell me I missed a foul……always in his teams favour.
Should have ditched him at half time. My mistake there.
 
Ori said:
but I feel strongly that I shouldn’t happen.
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Your job as referee is to apply law and competition rules, not what you feel they should be. Starting to adjust rules to fit what you feel they should be is a slippery slope - even where this example is relatively harmless (and will make your life more difficult rather than other officials), it's the start of the path that leads to statements like "I don't do sin bins" and other LWR behaviour.

I'd also caution you against getting correlation and causation mixed up. An assistant may be biased and an assistant may be coaching from the line. Those are two unconnected actions - a biased assistant should of course be removed, but assuming that coaching means they will therefore make biased decisions is an unfair logical leap.

My only real experience with this was quite the opposite - I recall one assistant who was definitely overdoing his coaching. But when the ball was played through and the opponents scored, he kept the flag down and shouted to the defence "I told you that you needed to be a yard higher up!". Coaching to me implies someone who is paying attention, which is infinitely better than the type of CAR who just wandered around behind play and sticks the flag up without thinking.
 
GraemeS said:
Your job as referee is to apply law and competition rules, not what you feel they should be. Starting to adjust rules to fit what you feel they should be is a slippery slope - even where this example is relatively harmless (and will make your life more difficult rather than other officials), it's the start of the path that leads to statements like "I don't do sin bins" and other LWR behaviour.

I'd also caution you against getting correlation and causation mixed up. An assistant may be biased and an assistant may be coaching from the line. Those are two unconnected actions - a biased assistant should of course be removed, but assuming that coaching means they will therefore make biased decisions is an unfair logical leap.

My only real experience with this was quite the opposite - I recall one assistant who was definitely overdoing his coaching. But when the ball was played through and the opponents scored, he kept the flag down and shouted to the defence "I told you that you needed to be a yard higher up!". Coaching to me implies someone who is paying attention, which is infinitely better than the type of CAR who just wandered around behind play and sticks the flag up without thinking.
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Our league guidelines are clear that coaching is not allowed from a CAR. It’s also clear in the laws of the game that coaching has to be from technical area and only one coach can bark orders.

When someone is a CAR they are there to do one role and that is assist in the game as an official and not coach. It’s not subjective. It’s the rules.

On a more realistic level, coaching from the line agitates the parents and creates even more animosity.
I start off every brief by explaining that I don’t allow coaching from the lines. 9 times out of 10, the parent already knows this and agrees fully. Every so often I get the one who says…..”but I always do”.
 
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