RefSix

Abuse towards referees.

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#63
Its called the Premier League.
Don't agree, it was like this way before the Premier League started, and it is like that at least down to contrib football and possibly even supply league. It gets tagged as a recent thing but it isn't, anyone old enough will remember back to the Tony Adams versus David Elleray video.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#64
each and every ref can tackle dissent properly, nobody has ever asked anybody not too (as far as am aware)
Not individually they can't. If you have operated at senior level as I think I remember you saying you have then you will know that a referee at that level throwing around cards for dissent would get castigated. The wording of the law doesn't help - after all someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.

Referees have tried to fight the cause and it hasn't worked. As I've said before, one L3 referee in the London area took a zero tolerance approach to dissent and he went from a promising referee to being demoted within 18 months. The clubs killed him, but so did the observers as they expect an element of management. It would need a national directive where all referees do the same from the PL to the Dog and Duck League, and that won't happen.
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
#65
Football is very weak with dealing with abuse of all varieties and has been for decades. It even recognises it's own weakness in relation to all manners of abuse, whether that be players abusing officials or crowds abusing players/officials. Respect campaigns are endorsed and individual fans banned etc, but the abuse continues and the authorities remain weak and it's been like this for a very long time. Football needs to stop managing it's issues (therefore endorsing them in the eyes of the perpetrators) and deal with them.
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#66
Not individually they can't. If you have operated at senior level as I think I remember you saying you have then you will know that a referee at that level throwing around cards for dissent would get castigated. The wording of the law doesn't help - after all someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.

Referees have tried to fight the cause and it hasn't worked. As I've said before, one L3 referee in the London area took a zero tolerance approach to dissent and he went from a promising referee to being demoted within 18 months. The clubs killed him, but so did the observers as they expect an element of management. It would need a national directive where all referees do the same from the PL to the Dog and Duck League, and that won't happen.
Well, thereto lies the problem, lions led by monkeys!!!
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
#67
Not individually they can't. If you have operated at senior level as I think I remember you saying you have then you will know that a referee at that level throwing around cards for dissent would get castigated. The wording of the law doesn't help - after all someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.

Referees have tried to fight the cause and it hasn't worked. As I've said before, one L3 referee in the London area took a zero tolerance approach to dissent and he went from a promising referee to being demoted within 18 months. The clubs killed him, but so did the observers as they expect an element of management. It would need a national directive where all referees do the same from the PL to the Dog and Duck League, and that won't happen.
Not individually they can't. If you have operated at senior level as I think I remember you saying you have then you will know that a referee at that level throwing around cards for dissent would get castigated. The wording of the law doesn't help - after all someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.

Referees have tried to fight the cause and it hasn't worked. As I've said before, one L3 referee in the London area took a zero tolerance approach to dissent and he went from a promising referee to being demoted within 18 months. The clubs killed him, but so did the observers as they expect an element of management. It would need a national directive where all referees do the same from the PL to the Dog and Duck League, and that won't happen.
And people wonder why the respect campaign doesn't work? Why would people who abuse refs respect us when we won't tackle their dissent, but we will manage (ignore and/or allow it) and even demote referees who won't. It's the wrong approach and one born out of weakness and the idea that dissent/abuse is to be tolerated. It isn't in other sports or workplaces and it shouldn't be in football.

One of the biggest if not the biggest issue with retaining refs is dissent and abuse and yet it's accepted and it's this acceptance that is the very motivation and fuel which ensures it's continuation. It's so pitiful that it's 'managed'. I can't think of another sport or any walk of life that takes a similar stance? Its illogical and utterly self defeating and we're all part of it but change can only be led from the top.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#68
someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.
You say that in Rugby, you are in the bin. It's an easy decision supported by everyone including authorities.
Caution/bin for it in and assessed game, you lose marks and you are considered a weak/card happy referee.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#69
Not individually they can't. If you have operated at senior level as I think I remember you saying you have then you will know that a referee at that level throwing around cards for dissent would get castigated. The wording of the law doesn't help - after all someone saying "come on ref, that's a terrible decision" is dissent, but who would caution for it? If you go down a black and white all dissent must be cautioned approach then we will be finishing 7 a side.

Referees have tried to fight the cause and it hasn't worked. As I've said before, one L3 referee in the London area took a zero tolerance approach to dissent and he went from a promising referee to being demoted within 18 months. The clubs killed him, but so did the observers as they expect an element of management. It would need a national directive where all referees do the same from the PL to the Dog and Duck League, and that won't happen.



not every foul is a card, not every handball is a card and follows suit not every dissent is a card
if we finish 7 a side because players cannot behave acceptably on the park, then we finish 7 a side.
if a team have 4 acts of v/c in a game they are down to 7, so why on earth would we not put them down to 7 for 4 acts for offensive?
because, we accept it !

if anyone is claiming not to be told to f off in their game they are fooling themselves and if anyone is saying they are not offended with being told to f off in their game, they are again only misleading themselves. Alas, we, (and that includes me), we pretend its ok and do nothing. So, yes, we all do have the tools and 99% of refs simply for whatever reason, wont use them
we don't accept being told to f off in our work, sitting all comfy earning whatever it is we earn yet we accept it for £40 in the pouring rain in our shorts from a mutant stinking of Special Brew!! it defies logic !!
and don't use a smokescreen of industrial language, or heat of the moment frustration, if your late for work and have a issue with a task at work and approach the boss, he/she is frustrated but mine cannot and would not tell me to f off! And we are talking client contracts, not a throw in to the blue team! So frustration is an easy get out.
globally, collectively, when it comes to abuse, referees are weak. Programmed to be so, as other posts allude to.

I think in summary what I mean is, we just continue as per, just coz
No point moaning about dissent etc when you do have the tools to deal with it, but dont
 
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#71
not every foul is a card, not every handball is a card and follows suit not every dissent is a card
if we finish 7 a side because players cannot behave acceptably on the park, then we finish 7 a side.
if a team have 4 acts of v/c in a game they are down to 7, so why on earth would we not put them down to 7 for 4 acts for offensive?
because, we accept it !

if anyone is claiming not to be told to f off in their game they are fooling themselves and if anyone is saying they are not offended with being told to f off in their game, they are again only misleading themselves. Alas, we, (and that includes me), we pretend its ok and do nothing. So, yes, we all do have the tools and 99% of refs simply for whatever reason, wont use them
we don't accept being told to f off in our work, sitting all comfy earning whatever it is we earn yet we accept it for £40 in the pouring rain in our shorts from a mutant stinking of Special Brew!! it defies logic !!
and don't use a smokescreen of industrial language, or heat of the moment frustration, if your late for work and have a issue with a task at work and approach the boss, he/she is frustrated but mine cannot and would not tell me to f off! And we are talking client contracts, not a throw in to the blue team! So frustration is an easy get out.
globally, collectively, when it comes to abuse, referees are weak. Programmed to be so, as other posts allude to.

I think in summary what I mean is, we just continue as per, just coz
No point moaning about dissent etc when you do have the tools to deal with it, but dont
I gave up refereeing in 2001/2 season but had been asked back over the last year by county so I decided since my 2 reffing lads wanted me to do it I'd give it a go.

However, before I set the laws test I was asked to stand in, by my youngest sons club, for an U12 game as the ref had blown out at the night before and no replacement was available. If you've ever seen the Ray Winstone advert regarding Respect then you'll have an idea of what the game was like, I even joked to my lad that I was looking for cameras as I thought they were refilming it.

But, some do take action and after giving a warning of his future conduct I then sent the manager away. He returned after the match to give me some more of his views. misconduct reported and it goes to a hearing tonight, may be the shortest lived comeback on record if that condcut gets the thumbs up or there's 5 witnesses stating that he walks on water etc, seems to be the norm then it's lost on balance of probability and the abuse cycle continues.

As for not being told to F off at work as a paramedic I'd love it if it only stopped at that.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#72
I gave up refereeing in 2001/2 season but had been asked back over the last year by county so I decided since my 2 reffing lads wanted me to do it I'd give it a go.

However, before I set the laws test I was asked to stand in, by my youngest sons club, for an U12 game as the ref had blown out at the night before and no replacement was available. If you've ever seen the Ray Winstone advert regarding Respect then you'll have an idea of what the game was like, I even joked to my lad that I was looking for cameras as I thought they were refilming it.

But, some do take action and after giving a warning of his future conduct I then sent the manager away. He returned after the match to give me some more of his views. misconduct reported and it goes to a hearing tonight, may be the shortest lived comeback on record if that condcut gets the thumbs up or there's 5 witnesses stating that he walks on water etc, seems to be the norm then it's lost on balance of probability and the abuse cycle continues.

As for not being told to F off at work as a paramedic I'd love it if it only stopped at that.
You must have been very unlucky with your choice of comeback games as I've not encountered anything as bad
Geography is a major player. Some areas must be infinitely more difficult than others to referee
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
#73
Some areas must be infinitely more difficult than others to referee
For sure.

I sent off three players from a team this season in one match. Heard they had their game abandoned Saturday as one of their lads just butted someone off the ball and incited a riot.

Maybe I caught them on a good day if it was just three reds?
 
#74
You must have been very unlucky with your choice of comeback games as I've not encountered anything as bad
Geography is a major player. Some areas must be infinitely more difficult than others to referee
That game wasn't one of my comeback games, that game was done because the ref pulled out of my lads game. Paperwork is still going through county at the moment for me to start officially again.

League they play in has some "challenging" teams but the standard of play is very high.

Anyhow, the hearing didn't go on as they didn't tell the other party so delayed for now.

Funny thing is the most challenging teams, either in this league or those my lads have reffed have come from areas that I never thought would be that way. Get teams from Battersea and Brixton and they're hard but fair. Funny old world.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#75
Unfortunately I think it is more a society/cultural issue than something which can only be blamed on officials in the professional game.

I remember reading a when ago that abuse towards grass roots rugby referees was on the increase, and that the cricket equivalent of the FA was looking at how to deal with the rise in abuse towards their umpires (I think they were looking at cards/sin bins)

You very very rarely see much in the way of dissent let alone full on abuse in professional rugby. I do t watch much cricket but I don't think professional cricket has much trouble either.

So these alleged increases can't be blamed on officials at the professional level not doing their jobs properly.

I very rarely have issues in my games (admittedly I've probably only managed 20 games in a season and a half recently) and while I like to think that it's because I'm an awesome referee, I think it is down to how the teams in my area behave.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#76
Unfortunately I think it is more a society/cultural issue than something which can only be blamed on officials in the professional game.

I remember reading a when ago that abuse towards grass roots rugby referees was on the increase, and that the cricket equivalent of the FA was looking at how to deal with the rise in abuse towards their umpires (I think they were looking at cards/sin bins)

You very very rarely see much in the way of dissent let alone full on abuse in professional rugby. I do t watch much cricket but I don't think professional cricket has much trouble either.

So these alleged increases can't be blamed on officials at the professional level not doing their jobs properly.

I very rarely have issues in my games (admittedly I've probably only managed 20 games in a season and a half recently) and while I like to think that it's because I'm an awesome referee, I think it is down to how the teams in my area behave.
Completely agree. Attacks on paramedics, doctors, firefighters, etc, have increased massively in recent years and it isn't because they have done anything that encourages it. Rather it is a changing society, and not for the better.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#77
Completely agree. Attacks on paramedics, doctors, firefighters, etc, have increased massively in recent years and it isn't because they have done anything that encourages it. Rather it is a changing society, and not for the better.
It has been a subject of news in the recent months here in Australia as well. Its interesting how human brain evolves, or should I say devolves. Those professions are generally the most respected anywhere in the world.
 
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