RefSix

Abuse towards referees.

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#21
100% agree Russell, I posted something similar last week, players will always be disappointed, that’s never going to change, some will say something, that’s never going to change, where that tips into cardable dissent is a debatable line for sure.

At the mild end, let them have their say, either ignore or engage and then continue with your call.

At the higher end you’ve got warnings, last warnings, yellows and reds if you so wish depending on what’s said... use them wisely!
 
#22
It is a fine line but we do have options available to us.

Personally, if the powers that be really want to see a behaviour change, IFAB should change Dissent and OFFINABUS to be direct free-kick offences.

It might sharpen one or two minds to behave a little more, particularly so the goalkeeper who likes to mouth off from 80 yards plus, who then would likely concede a penalty for his troubles.

That combined with a spell in a Sin Bin at grassroots level likely to have more effect. At pro level, it may cut out some of the screaming like Ronaldo’s too.

Alternatively, and this might be a little controversial, but for each 3 cautions for dissent or 1 sending off /misconduct charge for OFFINABUS for a team, change the punishment from a fine payable to CFA to a mandatory points deduction or Cup explusion instead (depending on competition). Increase the deduction made for each set of further offences after this or if expelled from, or they crash out of Cup competitions, then restrict entry to that team the following season.

This would hammer home the message not to abuse referees as it’ll hit the worst offending teams exactly where it’ll have most impact to them, plus if they have repeat offenders, teams would then have to balance using supposed ‘good but gobby’ players against the threat of being denied a good cup run or their league position. Well behaved teams would have very little to fear from this in the long run.

I only suggest the latter as most of the worst offenders always seem to find the money to pay their fines off with impunity and we don’t see an improvement in their behaviour after they receive one and the suspension has been served.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#23
the above is great but it misses the one main point. As referees' each and every one of us have the power to deal with dissent but to a man, we don't.
So, we (and I refer to we as a collective name for referees globally, not just this forum), and our fathers before us, are responsible for our own mess.
We try to manage dissent, we pretend we have not heard it, we ignore it, we give 2nd chances, we make allowances for it because maybe it should have been their throw on reflection, we have already had 10 cards in the game so cba to take this one, and in reverse, we have strolled 89 mins with no cards, so, we are not taking it with seconds to go, we have an inbuilt desire to accept industrial language as the norm, we have a language barrier so we make allowances, and so on.

We all have the tools required to curb dissent. do we give a 2nd chance on a DOGSO? an act of violence? a routine handball?

if your driving home peed off because you have had dogs abuse for 90 mins and your fed up of it....look at yourself in the mirror and ask who could have prevented it, and your answer is staring back at you.
 
#24
I never said I hadn’t dealt with any dissent using the tools available to me as an official, but yes, I’m honest enough to admit there are times I wish I had acted differently in certain games. I can say like most referees that I wouldn’t have learnt and moved forward unless from such experiences. 26 seasons later, I’m still here and still learning.

I agree with you that we don’t all act consistently as a collective, with the inevitable consequences being part of the problems we’re seeing. But I’m not convinced the current issues we’re seeing are wholly down to this. I’d think we’d be naive to believe that too.

As the current laws are written to be interpreted as in the opinion of the referee and we’re all individuals, many of us with opposing viewpoints, you’ll never achieve consistency.

I think you’ve missed the point of my post too. The aim was simply to highlight that the current punishments that the available on field disciplinary measures go on to carry, including the on field restarts, are not having sufficient enough effect to control/reverse the behaviour that is being seen.

I would still have doubts that even if law was being applied to the umpteenth degree by every referee, that this would be sufficient to change behaviour fully, given the culture of criticism seems to be so ingrained in some.

If it were the case that the existing measures were having the desired effect in the current climate, even thought law is being applied inconsistently, then surely we can agree that this discussion would indeed be a mute point.

As this is not the case, and many of our colleagues are showing their displeasure both via forums such as these, and as far as we can tell it is also being born out in terms of referee retention figures too, then aside from using the tools available on field (as we can at least agree these aren’t working effectively in their current form, however we arrive at the conclusion), how else do you suggest that our governing bodies otherwise create sufficient leverage for the tide of abuse to actually change for the better?

We can’t make everyone of us referee the same way in every game, as much as many would like that to be the case, so the only way I can see to ultimately change the behaviour overall is to either redraft law; amend the punishments available; or both; to help eradicate the undesirable conduct driving the current loss of match officials.

I’d be interested to see actual suggestions of how people would go about it, rather than further criticism of our colleague’s law application or match control.

Does anyone else have any serious suggestions which they think could help along the lines of the ones I’ve suggested previously?
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#25
my post is deadly serious thanks. Pleading for act consistently as a collective regarding dissent is mute, as we are never going to be consistent on any aspect of the game, apart from of course offside which is factual and even then as we know, the decision will not be correct on every occasion

be honest, when did you last stop the game mid flow to administer a yellow card for dissent and award the idfk?
again, when did you last stop the game mid flow to award a red card and award the idfk? If you can recall when you did, roughly how often does it happen? The answer is very rare. So, given we don't utilise the control methods that we do have currently at our disposal, its entirely understandable to scoff at suggestions of what alternative tools might do.
There is totally no way no ref gets no dissent in a game, yet, to a man, we do not come out a game with 8 cautions for dissent. Varying levels of, yes, but, WE ignore it, from the live Sky games this weekend, to the council park number 9, (the one with the hill behind the goal and the ball runs into the stream every time).

You cant give lengthy bans, if you do, teams don't have enough players, which in turn means maybe no team that weekend, which in turn means less refs are needed. No players equal no team equal eventually, no league.
You cant give big fines, again, the teams need the money to exist, no money equal no team equal no league.
Vicious cycle.

what you can do is change society, which is for a different forum somewhere else on the interweb. Its a fact that referees globally turn a blind eye (or ear) to dissent. And by dong that, match officials take a large share of the blame. Players know what they can get away with, or expect too, because the guys before you have NOT DONE THEIR JOB.

You would be fully supported in lotg by getting to the min number of players in a game and abandoning. Who might wonder what on earth is going on, would be you rdo, and association. YOUR PEERS, as questions will be asked of you dealing firmly with dissent, why? because its not the done thing, your colleagues, associates, would be the ones to degrade you if it was your game abandonded 6 weeks on the trot due to not enough players to continue. Questions would be asked of your handling of dissent, not so much questions about the actual dissent itself!

we all cant wait to fire out the red if we even think we hear the word cheat. Anything else is far game it seems, we have made our own bed and now we sleep on it. (and of course I include myself firmly in any reference to all referees in this post!)
 
#26
We both agree we can’t get consistency so the existing process won’t, and isn’t working. I also agree if we stood up and fired out cards left, right and centre, it would be us under scrutiny rather than the dissent itself

Sitting in our beds and lying in it isn’t going to stop hundreds of referees leaving the game each year either.

So unless you’re advocating the status quo and we continue accepting it (which isn’t going to change anything); a gung-ho approach with referees clamping on all comments,whether dissent or OFFINABUS (which let’s be honest is hardly likely to be backed or happen); or some radical shift change to societal norms (again unlikely); how would you actually suggest we as a sport turn the level of abuse around, given the existing process isn’t working?

Personally, I’ve been to clubs pre-season to offer referee viewpoints, worked as a league official to try to rain in intolerable behaviour by working with clubs on the importance of retention of officials and provided other suggestions like having an awareness scheme, similar to speed awareness courses, for dissent and OFFINABUS offences at CFA level.

Am I perfect in my own application, no, but I do try to manage similar levels of comments the same way, yes. That’s as much consistency as I can create for myself. I can’t create it for others, despite offering advice, coaching, tutoring and mentoring.

The status quo clearly isn’t an option to stop the abuse we’re seeing. The laws are just not working as the preventative tool they were intended. And yes, I agree poor application plays a PART.

And just for the record, my last dissent caution was three weeks ago in my last middle. Supply League level game. Caution and IDFK correctly administered. No complaints and there was no dissent afterwards. Highly unusual but that’s as it was.

So of course I can also see how the existing measures help, but I am not naive enough to believe they will work every time.

Given only a few posts in, somehow left feel like a battled hardened veteran but thanks for warm welcome ;)

Anyone else have any ideas if they could wave a magic wand, how they would seriously approach it?
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#27
A couple of interjections
1) The Laws don't need to change imho. Elite referees just need to be instructed to apply them and the problem goes away. The World Cup was a disgrace. Abuse was tolerated in bucket loads by every referee because they were clearly working to that mandate
2) Changing the Law to a DFK wouldn't work. This would just make referees less inclined to stop the game and apply the Law
To repeat what I said in the other post, unruly behaviour in football is part of the theatre and the global audience now crave it. That's why it's here to stay
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#28
Correct. All refs have the power. 99.99% of us from very top to lowest level make a choice to stand by and do nothing.
Dissent is low on our check list. of course every league will have one referee infamous for carding for dissent. Maybe in hindsight it is he who is doing things properly whilst the rest of us carry on with our blinkered existances
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#29
Just to pick up on something. I've stopped play in two OA games to caution for dissent. When the dissent is obvious to everyone, the accompanying IDFK gets everyone's attention and is more effective than deferring the punishment to a natural stoppage
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#30
Just to pick up on something. I've stopped play in two OA games to caution for dissent. When the dissent is obvious to everyone, the accompanying IDFK gets everyone's attention and is more effective than deferring the punishment to a natural stoppage

Oh it does happen, but as an offence, its not common. Granted most dissent will take place after say a decision is made and thus the game is already stopped but in my experience of officiating and watching, its rare to see the game stopped for it
Someone will know better than me, but, could anyone name say, 5 cases of foul abusive since premiership began?
I was at Old Trafford when Rob Styles binned Alan Smith then at Newcastle but I be struggling to list off many more...
 

Justylove

Well-Known Member
#31
I try to set the tone early in my games. Get the really gobby one early and normally by the time you get the second (or if they are really dumb, the third) they realise they need to get on with the game and stop whining.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#32
I try to set the tone early in my games. Get the really gobby one early and normally by the time you get the second (or if they are really dumb, the third) they realise they need to get on with the game and stop whining.

There is certainly merit to this. Totally pointless to caution for dissent to a guy in the 85th min who has been doing your box in since kick off.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#33
No two referees are the same. Towards the latter stages of my refereeing I had a very low card count for dissent, but that doesn't mean I ignored it, rather than the players knew me and knew what I would and wouldn't let them get away with. And if they didn't know me the first player to even come close to dissent would get pulled aside to re-iterate the message to all that it wouldn't be happening in that game.

Comparing grass roots to senior levels isn't fair or sensible though. There isn't millions of pounds riding on your Sunday morning game like there is on a top flight clash, and therefore the refereeing will be different. At senior levels you aren't just managing a game, you are managing an event, and that is completely different. Doesn't mean that dissent should be ignored, but how it is dealt with may be different.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#34
There isn't millions of pounds riding on your Sunday morning game like there is on a top flight clash, and therefore the refereeing will be different. At senior levels you aren't just managing a game, you are managing an event, and that is completely different
Don't really agree with this
Dissent = Dissent
Regardless of anything else
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
#35
No two referees are the same. Towards the latter stages of my refereeing I had a very low card count for dissent, but that doesn't mean I ignored it, rather than the players knew me and knew what I would and wouldn't let them get away with. And if they didn't know me the first player to even come close to dissent would get pulled aside to re-iterate the message to all that it wouldn't be happening in that game.

Comparing grass roots to senior levels isn't fair or sensible though. There isn't millions of pounds riding on your Sunday morning game like there is on a top flight clash, and therefore the refereeing will be different. At senior levels you aren't just managing a game, you are managing an event, and that is completely different. Doesn't mean that dissent should be ignored, but how it is dealt with may be different.


I dont disagree. It does raise the question though,what other laws should we treat differently?
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
#36
My two penneth worth...

Isn't part of the issue the fact that referees will never deal with dissent properly, because in doing so (and therefore having matches where they may be 8 yellow cards) their superiors will perhaps consider that they can't manage the game correctly, despite that being exactly what they did? I could easily be wrong there and perhaps applying law in regards of dissent vigorously would be applauded? I've been too tolerant like most others so I've no way of knowing.

I understand the point about it being an event but there are many other sporting events where dissent towards an official would be dealt with properly so I disagree there.

We are all culpable off allowing dissent from Mike Riley to me on a Sunday morning.it requires a complete new approach if we want to truly deal with the issue from top to bottom. That's not going to happen and therefore we amble on. But we must recognise that football is very weak and tolerant of poor behaviour and that is to the shame of all authorities.
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
#37
We also allow dissent if it's perceived to be 'frustration', which is nonsense really. If an umpire give a me out at cricket and I shout "**** off umpire or similar words then I'd be sitting the next few games out and rightly so! The amount of refs that used to have a pre match chat before my games and say "i won't accept dissent towards me or the opposition (they did) but if it's in frustration then that's ok". What utter nonsense. Of course, every bit of dissent throughout the game was "just frustration ref!". But the fact that we even make allowances for it in any form is just nonsense really. It's weak and I'm as bad as anyone else.
 

Justylove

Well-Known Member
#38
My two penneth worth...

Isn't part of the issue the fact that referees will never deal with dissent properly, because in doing so (and therefore having matches where they may be 8 yellow cards) their superiors will perhaps consider that they can't manage the game correctly, despite that being exactly what they did? I could easily be wrong there and perhaps applying law in regards of dissent vigorously would be applauded? I've been too tolerant like most others so I've no way of knowing.

I understand the point about it being an event but there are many other sporting events where dissent towards an official would be dealt with properly so I disagree there.

We are all culpable off allowing dissent from Mike Riley to me on a Sunday morning.it requires a complete new approach if we want to truly deal with the issue from top to bottom. That's not going to happen and therefore we amble on. But we must recognise that football is very weak and tolerant of poor behaviour and that is to the shame of all authorities.
In my experience, if you do deal with it, the penmy does drop with the players, both on the day AND in future games.

The issue is often "getting to the first card" allowing it to happen and not penalizing. I use one loud warning with the captain making it clear to all that i'm not going to stand for it, then next time, bang they've been warned!

I've lost count of the number of games I've gone to where I've heard the collective "its him again, keep your mouth shut" before the game from teams I've done previously.

Like @RustyRef says, as teams get to know you, they learn what your pick up points are.
 

Chrisp72

Always smiling
#39
my post is deadly serious thanks. Pleading for act consistently as a collective regarding dissent is mute, as we are never going to be consistent on any aspect of the game, apart from of course offside which is factual and even then as we know, the decision will not be correct on every occasion

be honest, when did you last stop the game mid flow to administer a yellow card for dissent and award the idfk?
again, when did you last stop the game mid flow to award a red card and award the idfk? If you can recall when you did, roughly how often does it happen? The answer is very rare. So, given we don't utilise the control methods that we do have currently at our disposal, its entirely understandable to scoff at suggestions of what alternative tools might do.
There is totally no way no ref gets no dissent in a game, yet, to a man, we do not come out a game with 8 cautions for dissent. Varying levels of, yes, but, WE ignore it, from the live Sky games this weekend, to the council park number 9, (the one with the hill behind the goal and the ball runs into the stream every time).

You cant give lengthy bans, if you do, teams don't have enough players, which in turn means maybe no team that weekend, which in turn means less refs are needed. No players equal no team equal eventually, no league.
You cant give big fines, again, the teams need the money to exist, no money equal no team equal no league.
Vicious cycle.

what you can do is change society, which is for a different forum somewhere else on the interweb. Its a fact that referees globally turn a blind eye (or ear) to dissent. And by dong that, match officials take a large share of the blame. Players know what they can get away with, or expect too, because the guys before you have NOT DONE THEIR JOB.

You would be fully supported in lotg by getting to the min number of players in a game and abandoning. Who might wonder what on earth is going on, would be you rdo, and association. YOUR PEERS, as questions will be asked of you dealing firmly with dissent, why? because its not the done thing, your colleagues, associates, would be the ones to degrade you if it was your game abandonded 6 weeks on the trot due to not enough players to continue. Questions would be asked of your handling of dissent, not so much questions about the actual dissent itself!

we all cant wait to fire out the red if we even think we hear the word cheat. Anything else is far game it seems, we have made our own bed and now we sleep on it. (and of course I include myself firmly in any reference to all referees in this post!)
This is spot on very well put hard to argue with any of that 👏
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
#40
In my experience, if you do deal with it, the penmy does drop with the players, both on the day AND in future games.

The issue is often "getting to the first card" allowing it to happen and not penalizing. I use one loud warning with the captain making it clear to all that i'm not going to stand for it, then next time, bang they've been warned!

I've lost count of the number of games I've gone to where I've heard the collective "its him again, keep your mouth shut" before the game from teams I've done previously.

Like @RustyRef says, as teams get to know you, they learn what your pick up points are.
Agreed and I do exactly the same although often without any warning. I'm assuming my card count for dissent is amongst if not the highest. Still let too much go though but like I've said, football is weak on behaviour in comparison to other sports
 
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