The Ref Stop

6/10

Kes said:
Club marks mean jack **** to me. I referee each match as I find it and have never ever known what my "club mark" for any of them was. Why would I care? Managers and coaches grading a referee's performance is a ridiculous concept. Your job is to be objective - theirs isn't.
The way I see it is this - if my "club marks" were consistently crap enough, then the league or county would send somebody qualified out to watch me in which case all would become clear. They haven't/won't so I'm fine.
Club marks. What a load of old pump. :rolleyes::p:wall:
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But what you've done there is perfectly summarise the value of club marks! It's not for your benefit, it's to the highlight those who consistently get poor marks and are the very worst in the league who need some further mentoring to get up to standard and it's to highlight the very best who might be deserving of a league cup final.

If you're a middle-of-the-road ref, it's absolutely correct that you'd never hear anything about club marks. And if you're one of the best in the league, exactly the same is true - but you might also just "randomly" get a division cup final. If you're not hearing anything about your club marks, that doesn't mean they're not useful to someone else, it just means they're fine and you don't need any special attention.
 
The Ref Stop
spuddy1878 said:
You mean mark the clubs on their behavior on and off the pitch ?
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Yes. We mark the clubs in the same way that they mark us, based on their overall conduct and our enjoyment of the game.
In the last 5 years two teams have been removed from the league because they were voted off by the clubs after finishing at the bottom of the Respect table. They didn't enjoy playing them any more than we enjoyed refereeing them. They are treated as if a new team and have to apply to join the league. Individual players can join other teams, but they don't get to stay on the league en masse.

The team who won the premier division last season are always near the bottom of the table for referee marks, and their top player has just been banned Sine Die for spitting in the referee's face, confusingly after they won against the second placed team! A couple of years ago he was banned for a season for doing something similar. They were runners-up in the county premier cup final, but will struggle to get in a league next year.

When I was playing about thirty years ago we had a team kicked out of the premier division of one of my sunday leagues for repeated misconduct. They were absolutely awful, with several matches abandoned - and things were a lot less strict in those days. They applied to join another local sunday league but were refused entry. They appealed to the county FA, who said that the league couldn't refuse entry as long as the players didn't have misconduct issues. The way it was resolved was that they allowed any players who hadn't been sent off over the season to join the league.

Marks are potentially a double-edged sword. They're not something to worry about. As Kes says, if the league are concerned about marks they will send someone to watch. This counts for clubs as well as referees, and no one is promoted or demoted purely on the strength of them. They are used to reinforce observer markings, not instead of.
 
On a slightly different tack -do all/most neutral ARs get marked by the referee?

I got offered a Bostick U23 Cup Final last season (couldn't do it as I was away on holiday) and was told by ref's secretary it was based on a) helping cover games at last minute b) admin and c) 'your marks' - but I don't know if that is club marks or
the mark given by referee?
 
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PinnerPaul said:
On a slightly different tack -do all/most neutral ARs get marked by the referee?

I got offered a Bostick U23 Cup Final last season (couldn't do it as I was away on holiday) and was told by ref's secretary it was based on a) helping cover games at last minute b) admin and c) 'your marks' - but I don't know if that is club marks on the mark given by referee?
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They definitely ask for NAR marks on the Bostik dev league, I can guarantee that! Think it's fairly common elsewhere as well, although I've only reffed on one other NAR league aside from that.
 
PinnerPaul said:
On a slightly different tack -do all/most neutral ARs get marked by the referee?

I got offered a Bostick U23 Cup Final last season (couldn't do it as I was away on holiday) and was told by ref's secretary it was based on a) helping cover games at last minute b) admin and c) 'your marks' - but I don't know if that is club marks or
the mark given by referee?
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On my Supply League the L4's mark their NARs as part of post match reporting. There has also been guidance this season regarding the criteria you should use to arrive at these marks ... although wrongly and surprisingly IMO, 'bringing sweets for the dressing room' didn't feature in said criteria ...
 
Russell Jones said:
On my Supply League the L4's mark their NARs as part of post match reporting. There has also been guidance this season regarding the criteria you should use to arrive at these marks ... although wrongly and surprisingly IMO, 'bringing sweets for the dressing room' didn't feature in said criteria ...
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I agree with that last point Russell - especially as I always bring chocolate for my fellow officials!:):)

I'm going for 'Rocky' bars tonight I think!:p
 
Referees used to mark assistants on contrib and FA competitions, but this stopped a long time ago now, I think around the time that the requirement to send in team sheets after games stopped. So the only person marking the assistants now is the observer if there is one assigned.

The fact that the clubs only mark the referee and not the assistants means that you as the referee need to have a very tight reign on your assistants. Obviously you let them know what you want on the pitch during the briefing, but what happens off the pitch after the game can be just as damaging to your mark. I've witness ill advised, or even inappropriate, comments by assistants in the board room after games and it really doesn't help the referee.
 
GraemeS said:
it's to highlight the very best who might be deserving of a league cup final.
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But does it highlight that, or does it just highlight who's the friendliest ref who didn't book my players and came to the pub after?
 
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I've only been told of my marks twice by a club before in 16 years of refereeing.

The first to do so said he gave me 10 out of 100 because he thought I had a personal grudge against him (player manager). Basically he played for a team where I was assaulted and put in hospital for sending his team mate off.
He moaned I never gave him a free kick etc and thought I was picking on him because of that incident 2-3 years earlier.
How far wrong he was. The free kicks he claimed was he was backing in a lot and the defenders moved out the way so he kept falling over. I carded him for kicking the ball away. I disallowed a goal that he scored for a blatant push on the keeper from a corner by a team of his.
Got a call from my ref sec to explain his outburst and said basically what I wrote above and he laughed and said I'll remove this score then as it's bollox.

The 2nd was a more recent fixture in which I sent off the teams captain/CB for a headbutt on a striker. He had just committed a foul, the striker got up and started walking towards him, not even aggressively to be honest, and the defender jogged to him and headbutted him. Very easy decision. His coach said I done well and apologised for his players reactions and gave me 85.

Overall, I generally don't care for the marks given by clubs personally. I know if I've had a bad game. I probably over analyse the game myself when back in my car or at home, especially if I'm on whole game adding in the cards I've given out that day.
I am my own worst critic I think and strive to improve the next game out.
I've bought a GPS watch to help my positioning and distance covered etc. I'm getting into far better positions now and feel my own game has improved by talking to myself about it.
 
I think all us referees on here know how well we have done.

I had a tough game last week and looking back one team can probably think they didn't get the rub of the green with two big issues, not howlers by any stretch but two that on another day with another referee they might have benefited from.
 
RustyRef said:
Referees used to mark assistants on contrib and FA competitions, but this stopped a long time ago now, I think around the time that the requirement to send in team sheets after games stopped. So the only person marking the assistants now is the observer if there is one assigned.

The fact that the clubs only mark the referee and not the assistants means that you as the referee need to have a very tight reign on your assistants. Obviously you let them know what you want on the pitch during the briefing, but what happens off the pitch after the game can be just as damaging to your mark. I've witness ill advised, or even inappropriate, comments by assistants in the board room after games and it really doesn't help the referee.
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Supply Division referees still mark the ARs on my league. Their marking range is quite often off the scale. Just like observers there are a few on who I can depend to accurately reflect an ARs performance and it often closely mirrors the observers mark.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Supply Division referees still mark the ARs on my league. Their marking range is quite often off the scale. Just like observers there are a few on who I can depend to accurately reflect an ARs performance and it often closely mirrors the observers mark.
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So, most of them haven't got a clue then and they mark according to the scoreline?? Which prophet said that the other day!! :confused:
 
lincs22 said:
Finally, something @Sheffields Finest is not good at!!!!!:D

Its only been 4,726 message and 2 1/2 years to get this statement.:eek:
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Hehe, I was never good in any of my 500+ games apparently, I spoiled every damn one of them. Stil get loads of requests even 1.5 seasons on from retiring.... it seems the quieter ones were more appreciative of my no nonsense style! Always happy to contribute to others learnings and pass on experiences. You never know, they may wheel me out one day in the future for a guest appearance somewhere!
 
Might be a silly question but where can I see my club marks? Interested to see what the manager gave me after I sent off one and booked two others and received a earful after the game, whereas the other manager wrote an email to my FA telling them I had a great game...
 
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