Kes
I'll Decide ...
Yes, but not really of any consequence unless he gives you a development mark for it.
That sort of individual rubbish and "pet hates" is something a referee should appeal. In my own opinion of course.
2nd Assessment / Observation
- Thread starter OldNavyRef
- Start date
That sort of individual rubbish and "pet hates" is something a referee should appeal. In my own opinion of course.
Not in my world, but then I would accept it may differ on the level of game. I would also accept that in can take a second or two to decide if a foul has actually occurred, but assuming it then has, to signal advantage at the earliest opportunity, because what no one wants is the offended player or one of his team mates to retaliate when not knowing the Referee has seen a credible advantage.Sorry David I don't agree. (You should have quit while you were ahead)
After a penal offence (except in the PA) it's a good skill to delay blowing for a second or two to see if the advantage accrues. Only when a definite advantage materialises should you then signal for it. Once you've signalled it, it's then very difficult to bring it back and penalise for the original offence without their opponents complaining you've given two bites of the cherry.
Delaying your whistle, not signalling, and then deciding to awark the FK is infinitely better refereeing and far easier to sell.
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Ideally, 'advantage' should be signalled before 'advantage' has accrued
However, the 'delayed whistle' is a big aspect of my game. There are times when that delayed whistle of mine should be accompanied by the 'advantage' signal because I can always bring it back if advantage does not accrue. This would give me more potential to score under the 'Decision Making' competency that delayed whistle in isolation
There's a fine line (and very little time) between delayed whistle and an advantage that did not accrue. It is a difficult competency to do well on in my experience, not least because there's a big divide between when the players want advantage compared to what the observers are looking for. To make matters worse, I agree with what the players want and have therefore been marked down for over-use of advantage
However, the 'delayed whistle' is a big aspect of my game. There are times when that delayed whistle of mine should be accompanied by the 'advantage' signal because I can always bring it back if advantage does not accrue. This would give me more potential to score under the 'Decision Making' competency that delayed whistle in isolation
There's a fine line (and very little time) between delayed whistle and an advantage that did not accrue. It is a difficult competency to do well on in my experience, not least because there's a big divide between when the players want advantage compared to what the observers are looking for. To make matters worse, I agree with what the players want and have therefore been marked down for over-use of advantage
The Driving Test and being Observed is a good analogy (one that I'd thought of already as I'm teaching my 17 year old daughter to drive and have since taken out life insurance)
If we all drove like we were on a driving test, the roads would be a considerably safer place. If we referee every game like we're being observed, we'd be better referees. Reluctantly, I'm gradually coming around to the notion that refereeing as if observed (and all the criteria we get marked on) is almost always the best way to referee a football match
If we all drove like we were on a driving test, the roads would be a considerably safer place. If we referee every game like we're being observed, we'd be better referees. Reluctantly, I'm gradually coming around to the notion that refereeing as if observed (and all the criteria we get marked on) is almost always the best way to referee a football match
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Can't see how the observer of whom you speak would be able to do that Rusty? Not with the current form anyway. There is no competency that requires an AR to "not flag" at the same time as the ref blows. Nor is it written in the LOTG. I'd suggest that there's more validity in giving a development mark or advice to an AR that doesn't - especially when it's glaringly obvious and is right in front of them. Unless I've misunderstood what you originally wrote(?)
Part of most pre-match briefs involves the referee telling their ARs to be brave and flag anything they're sure of (unless the ref is signalling or shouting otherwise - like with penalty decisions).
As an AR, if an observer marked me down for complying with the ref's more-than-reasonable pre-match instructions, I'd have more than a word to say about it.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Seems like an "öxymoron" (for want of a better word) to me.
Surely the referee sees the advantage present itself first and then signals it to let everyone know it's being played.
That's why players are advised to "play to the whistle" at all times.
Get what you mean
Delayed whistle and advantage are similar
Law 5
allows play to continue when an offence occurs and the non-offending team will benefit from the advantage, and penalises the offence if the anticipated advantage does not ensue at that time or within a few seconds
The problem being, we don't tend to get recognition for 'delayed whistle' under the Decision Making competency, because the observer may not be aware that we identified a penal offence, whereas if you can squeeze in the advantage signal, the observer is made aware of exactly what we're doing at all times (especially if advantage for the delayed whistle did not accrue)
Possibly on the verge of cheating. but im very black and white.
Nope. It's research/analysis. Just like a team scouts there opposition to understand their tactics and develop game plan.
You have to use information available to you and if there is something simple to not lose marks over then that's fair game.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Possibly. But yes, I think that would be wrong since there's no correlation with being wrong in law.
2.1 Always assesses the referee’s position and
view of events using eye contact and time before
offering any advice
2.3 Has the confidence to offer advice when it is
required to support the team’s management of the
game (Taking the lead, both on-field,
infringements, and off-field, Technical Area
personnel and substitutions.)
Flagging a free kick which the ref has blown for (as you know) helps sell the team decision far better in my view
But actually not necessary unless it's within your credible area anyway (obviously). It's also a good look if you flag for an obvious foul in front of you but the ref,having seen it then decides to play advantage etc. You, as the AR have no idea what the ref is thinking of at the time so you just flag the foul and follow his lead.
The variables are many but for an observer to think that doing the above (unless not credible) is a no no, is just plain madness.
Having too much confidence to offer advice when it is not needed was what I was thinking.
More and more we are being told if ref sees and blows there is no need to signal. It adds little value. Indeed I mention it in my pre-match. If I want a flag I will be looking at you for it, inviting you in. I try to make sure I offer up opportunities for them to do this when the are credible to do so. Flagging in support just draws attention to the AR which is not be needed.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
So we're pretty much in agreement then!
All I'm saying, is that if the foul is 2 yards in front of you, (in which case the ref will be further away than you are) if it's obvious then it does no harm to flag it anyway. It may happen simultaneously or it may be your flag is a second before the whistle. Either way, if it's obvious, there's no harm done.
If the AR waits to see what the ref is gonna do every time an obvious foul occurs and then flags it "retrospectively" because the ref hasn't seen it then it can look messy, undermine the ref, and get the AR accused of being "busy" or trying to ref the game from the touchline. If the AR doesn't flag an obvious one because the ref hasn't seen it or has got it wrong, then for me, that just winds players/benches up even more and invites dissent and criticism for both of you. It's often a fine line I know ...
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Don't think we were ever in dispute tbhSo we're pretty much in agreement then!
All I'm saying, is that if the foul is 2 yards in front of you, (in which case the ref will be further away than you are) if it's obvious then it does no harm to flag it anyway. It may happen simultaneously or it may be your flag is a second before the whistle. Either way, if it's obvious, there's no harm done.
It's frustrating but most observers will accept if you explain your justification on things like positioning (especially if you have another observer or coach having told you to do it!), plus it does tend to average out. Obviously every season a few people are unfairly caught out by a dodgy obs but it's relatively unavoidable.
Of course, as I'm frequently told, our observers are completely impartial regardless!
Of course, as I'm frequently told, our observers are completely impartial regardless!
As an Observer of 23 years my advice concerning agitated flagged signals from the AR is that it doesn’t matter whether he/she hasn’t seen a penal offence, or disagrees with the Referee, if it’s right in front of them, so long as they are quick then to support/aiding Teamwork, which will assist in the Referee selling his/her decision. However, if not quick, then not to provide a signal since it will usually have the opposite/negative affect (“your only following the Referee”)Don't think we were ever in dispute tbh
For me if you change the way you ref when an assessor is there but drastically change it when not observed that's dodgy ground. But i am autistic and see things in a certain way.
Any system which values both club marks and observer marks will lend itself to people refereeing games slightly differently depending on whether an observer is there or not, and similarly if a referee knows that one observer is impressed by certain things (like maybe box to box sprints for example) it's human nature to try and exaggerate those things to give yourself a chance of earning that extra half point.