The Ref Stop

Alonso's Arm vs Bellerin's head

RustyRef said:
Padfoot, you are outvoted on this one but still maintain anyone that disagrees with you should hand in their whistles. You really need to stop being so judgemental, as, believe it or not (and I know that may be difficult), you aren't always right.

In the image that you have shown Alonso's arm isn't in any kind of unnatural position, he hasn't swung an arm, and any player jumping for a ball like that can be expected to have his arm in that position. I wouldn't disagree with a foul, but a red card for that is frankly laughable, even in continental Europe that wouldn't be a red card and in England there is no chance of that being given.
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Outvoted by PGMOL fan boys?

What has "natural" or "unnatural" got to do with raising your elbow then jumping into your opponent? Does that suddenly absolve a player of any responsibility towards challenging dangerously?
Alonso hasn't jumped straight up and down....he's jumped towards Bellerin....with his elbow leading the way, so any sort of contact is always going to be elbow first......nothing accidental about it all.
Back in the day, when I played, we were "taught" to jump like that precisely because the point of an elbow was a pretty good way of "distracting" your opponent from winning the ball......if they were worried about where your elbow was, they weren't worried about where the ball was......

GraemeS said:
I think the lack of a swinging arm or "pointed" elbow immediately rules out a red card for me (sorry Padfoot!).

However, I think you can definitely sell the foul, and probably a yellow as well. The player is going for the header, but he's done so in a pretty reckless manner and clattered the opponent in the process.
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He hasn't "clattered" the opponent, he's knocked him out.....Bellerin was out before he hit the floor.....that's how much force was used in the challenge........

Any challenge that leaves an opponent unconscious has been made with excessive force........
 
The Ref Stop
A Freethinker said:
GraemeS so if I run at an opponent with a straight forearm smash into the bridge of his nose, because there is no swing or pointed elbow it's not a foul? He leads with his arm, he makes contact with the opponent long before the ball arrives and smashes his elbow into his head! The only thing that saves him here is his hand is open and not a clenched fist. Foul minimum....can argue about card colour willing to accept arguments but it is a foul and I would agree with Padfoot :redcard:
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Unless I'm missing something, @GraemeS was agreeing it was a foul (and probably a yellow) but simply arguing against a red because the elbow was not deliberately used 'as a weapon'. The difference with the scenario you described is that there would be no logical reason for the elbow to be there, whereas in this case it is perfectly normal to jump with your arm there. So still a foul and I'd say a yellow for recklessness but red still seems over the top to me .. he was jumping there to head the ball (which he did!) far more than at Bellerin, who wasn't even there when he started his jump! In fact I'd liken it to a reckless lunge for the ball on the ground where we're told it's a yellow if the player clearly plays the ball but a red if he misses the ball and just plays the man ....
 
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Russell Jones said:
Unless I'm missing something, @GraemeS was agreeing it was a foul (and probably a yellow) but simply arguing against a red because the elbow was not deliberately used 'as a weapon'. The difference with the scenario you described is that there would be no logical reason for the elbow to be there, whereas in this case it is perfectly normal to jump with your arm there. So still a foul and I'd say a yellow for recklessness but red still seems over the top to me .. he was jumping there to head the ball (which he did!) far more than at Bellerin, who wasn't even there when he started his jump! In fact I'd liken it to a reckless lunge for the ball on the ground where we're told it's a yellow if the player clearly plays the ball but a red if he misses the ball and just plays the man ....
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Thank you, that's exactly what I was saying.
 
Russell Jones said:
Unless I'm missing something, @GraemeS was agreeing it was a foul (and probably a yellow) but simply arguing against a red because the elbow was not deliberately used 'as a weapon'. The difference with the scenario you described is that there would be no logical reason for the elbow to be there, whereas in this case it is perfectly normal to jump with your arm there. So still a foul and I'd say a yellow for recklessness but red still seems over the top to me .. he was jumping there to head the ball (which he did!) far more than at Bellerin, who wasn't even there when he started his jump! In fact I'd liken it to a reckless lunge for the ball on the ground where we're told it's a yellow if the player clearly plays the ball but a red if he misses the ball and just plays the man ....
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You need to watch it again!

Bellerin was in the air when Alonso jumped TOWARDS him, leading with his elbow......which is why his elbow knocks Bellerin out.....Bellerin jumps almost straight up.....Alonso takes off on the edge of the 6 yard and travels approx 4 ft towards Bellerin before smashing him in the face with his elbow......at speed.
 
Did any player even ask for a foul? Not clear on the video shown as it only shows a brief time period.

Usually a good indicator, but no more than that.

Padfoot said:
Outvoted by PGMOL fan boys
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@Padfoot - last chance mate before you are thread banned. Happy for you to debate your point, leave the nonsense out please.

Padfoot said:
'Any challenge that leaves an opponent unconscious has been made with excessive force........
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Now you are just plain making things up. Outcome deciding seriousness of offence? it's just not relevant in judging 2 players colliding like this - the worst injuries I have ever seen came about from the most innocuous challenges you can imagine. Like this one imho.

Bellerins movement was as much to blame as Alonsos. Sad and unlucky outcome for Bellerin, but Alonso is as entitled to go for that ball as Bellerin.
 
SM said:
Did any player even ask for a foul? Not clear on the video shown as it only shows a brief time period.

Usually a good indicator, but no more than that.


@Padfoot - last chance mate before you are thread banned. Happy for you to debate your point, leave the nonsense out please.


Now you are just plain making things up. Outcome deciding seriousness of offence? it's just not relevant in judging 2 players colliding like this - the worst injuries I have ever seen came about from the most innocuous challenges you can imagine. Like this one imho.

Bellerins movement was as much to blame as Alonsos. Sad and unlucky outcome for Bellerin, but Alonso is as entitled to go for that ball as Bellerin.
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So he's entitled to lead with his elbow?

Deliberately jumping into his opponent elbow first?
 
SM said:
I have watched the video a good few times. Just don't see it.
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Yep, exactly. He's going for the ball, arms are in a natural jumping position and he's not gone for the opponent, just failed to take enough care to avoid him.
 
He doesn't have to avoid him in this situation, Bellerin has moved into the path of alonso. In real time, both players are drawn to challenge for the ball and move with pace to try and get there first. Bellerin isn't just standing there with set feet, he runs across the path of alonso as much as the other way around. He doesn't get he jump he would like, unlike alonso who has a great opportunity for run and a leap.

By padfoot logic, if bellerin had got a better jump and alonso had suffered the ill consequence, would that be a penalty and red card the other way?
 
Bellerin is in the air first....Alonso jumps with his elbow, towards Bellerin, covering 4-5 ft in distance before striking Bellerin in the face with his elbow...all before any contact with the ball......

And you think that's a perfectly acceptable challenge......rendering an opponent unconscious before you've played the ball?

:redcard:
 
You would appear to be delusional mate. Struggling to see passed your gunner allegiance?
 
Padfoot said:
Bellerin was in the air when Alonso jumped
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This is the crux of your argument and it's just plain wrong. If you watch the video in the OP again, their feet leave the ground at an identical time. So stop being a :troll:, if there's a bucket going round for no longer needed whistles, please let yours be the first in there :)
 
Padfoot said:
You need to watch it again!

Bellerin was in the air when Alonso jumped TOWARDS him, leading with his elbow......which is why his elbow knocks Bellerin out.....Bellerin jumps almost straight up.....Alonso takes off on the edge of the 6 yard and travels approx 4 ft towards Bellerin before smashing him in the face with his elbow......at speed.
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You need to watch it again. They take off at almost identical times and are about two feet apart when they take off both with their arms in very similar positions.
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Alsono leaves the ground on the line of the 6 yd box....Bellerin is about a 1/4 of the way inside the 6 yd box, say 1.5 yds (or 4 feet).....Alsono covers this distance with his elbow leading the way and strikes Bellerin in the face before he makes contact with the ball.......rendering Bellerin unconscious.....

Now, being incredibly naive and forgiving towards the excessive force used, and putting that to one side for now, what happens when you make contact with the player before the ball in a challenge?
 
Loo
Padfoot said:
Alsono leaves the ground on the line of the 6 yd box....Bellerin is about a 1/4 of the way inside the 6 yd box, say 1.5 yds (or 4 feet).....Alsono covers this distance with his elbow leading the way and strikes Bellerin in the face before he makes contact with the ball.......rendering Bellerin unconscious.....

Now, being incredibly naive and forgiving towards the excessive force used, and putting that to one side for now, what happens when you make contact with the player before the ball in a challenge?
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Look at the picture...Alonso still has a foot on the ground a foot inside the box, Bellerin is about two inches off the ground and somewhere between two and three feet away.
 
Padfoot said:
Alsono leaves the ground on the line of the 6 yd box....Bellerin is about a 1/4 of the way inside the 6 yd box, say 1.5 yds (or 4 feet).....Alsono covers this distance with his elbow leading the way and strikes Bellerin in the face before he makes contact with the ball.......rendering Bellerin unconscious.....

Now, being incredibly naive and forgiving towards the excessive force used, and putting that to one side for now, what happens when you make contact with the player before the ball in a challenge?
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I'm not sure whether you are an Arsenal fan, or just like arguing for the sake of arguing, but you have a perfect photo above to show how non sensical your claims for a red card are. It is a 100% challenge for the ball, both players have their arms above their head, it really is just a genuine challenge.
 
Russell Jones said:
but simply arguing against a red because the elbow was not deliberately used 'as a weapon'. The difference with the scenario you described is that there would be no logical reason for the elbow to be there, whereas in this case it is perfectly normal to jump with your arm there. ..
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which isn't relevant. 'Deliberate' hasn't been in the LOTG for a long time. Go check on all the wordings around Serious Foul Play and violent conduct and tell me where 'deliberate' is a prerequisite for a red card.

It isn't. Plenty of innocently mistimed or misconducted tackles endanger the safety of an opponent. You simply cannot run to jump across at speed and lead with your arm at the player's head.

The arm being there isn't an essential part of the jump - and even if it was, that doesn't mean you get to do it and damn the opponent.

RustyRef said:
a perfect photo above to show how non sensical your claims for a red card are. .
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A photo which doesn't show the challenge?
 
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