The Ref Stop

PSG v Bayern

TBF, it does sound like a good game from the score line etc, but I'd struggle to stay tuned after seeing that HB decision
The Hemel Town game was interesting. Sort of a terrible watch, but in all the ways I like! They went out on PKs unfortunately
Off the Boreham Wood with the kids tonight. Not particularly interested in how Arsenal get on either
 
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The Ref Stop
DavidObs said:
Good question, but Rusty is correct in that it has virtually always been the case for as long as I can remember & it doesn’t matter what tweaks are done to the Laws or any additional guidance provided, Europe/UEFA/European Referees continue to do the same thing with the same/very similar incidents - penalise. As to why - looks like it’s just in their DNA.
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I think its just weird. Bi peds move limbs when they move, that really (it really is) in our DNA.
 
I’m sure it wasn’t as remotely exciting as the smash n’ grab 1-0 away playoff semi win that I watched instead last night and nearly fell asleep standing up.

Caution for simulation after EIGHTEEN seconds though, great stuff.
 
Big Cat said:
TBF, it does sound like a good game from the score line etc, but I'd struggle to stay tuned after seeing that HB decision
The Hemel Town game was interesting. Sort of a terrible watch, but in all the ways I like! They went out on PKs unfortunately
Off the Boreham Wood with the kids tonight. Not particularly interested in how Arsenal get on either
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There was also the incident when a PSG player went down with a foot injury and the ref stopped the game as Bayern were attacking.. Not at all dubious ;-) but then again I see plain poor refereeing in the PL every day of the week so it's no surprise really.
 
RustyRef said:
Because the heads of FIFA and UEFA refereeing have told referees to be strict on handling. Whereas Howard Webb has done the opposite. That’s why you’ll see the English FIFA badges referees judging handball decisions completely differently in the EPL than the ECL.
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Thank you, but what is the purpose?
 
Pembroke said:
Thank you, but what is the purpose?
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There have always been divergent views on when handling should be punished and what consistutes an unfair advantage from the contact with ball or arm. For a very long time the divide between south america and England was huge. It's closer now (I think) and settling closer to what England (and the US, too) saw as the proper standard. I would say that the core difference between England and UEFA/FIFA is where to draw the line on what makes the player "unnaturally" bigger. It's a mushy standard. And I think England focusses more on natural for what the player is doing than does UEFA/FIFA. (My gut is that the US is now closer to UEFA/FIFA than to England.) To my eye (having seen only limited replays), this was close but not at all surprising call for a match outside England. A player trying to block a ball is often held to a higher "unnatural" standard than a player who is not moving toward the ball. (I personally tend more towards the England view, though I do think England sometimes forgives sneaky play in this area that UEFA does not.)
 
Pembroke said:
Thank you, but what is the purpose?
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Like most situations in life and work, the stance taken often comes from the views of the senior managers. Collina and Rosetti want handling penalised whenever the arm is away from the natural silhouette. In contrast Webb says PGMO listen to what the clubs are telling them and therefore aren't giving as many penalties for handling. Probably similar to how some CEOs want their staff back in offices 4 days a week, others are happy for them to primarily work from home. Different opinions, but those opinions get hoisted onto everyone in the organisation whether they like it or not.
 
@RustyRef @Social Lurker thanks for the replies. I am looking at what the benefit is? And as somebody who has been employed to play football, coach football and athletics I am looking at what is the benefit of what UEFA/FIFA. The way this is interpreted is illogical. Players are being expected to behave unnaturally in specific situations.

Thankfully we do not have the same standard. In these specific situations players are coached to defend critically, we stop the ball first. UEFA/FIFA standard is "well you will have to chop your arms off .."
 
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Pembroke said:
@RustyRef @Social Lurker thanks for the replies. I am looking at what the benefit is? And as somebody who has been employed to play football, coach football and athletics I am looking at what is the benefit of what UEFA/FIFA. The way this is interpreted is illogical. Players are being expected to behave unnaturally in specific situations.
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I think the best way to sum it up is this - when you are defending a shot or a cross (which in their terms is not an "unexpected ball") it is your job as an elite professional defender to not have your arm unfairly block said shot/cross by creating a barrier. Maybe it doesn't match the dictionary definition of a naturally placed arm but I think the idea is that it helps create a more attacking game.
 
RustyRef said:
Because the heads of FIFA and UEFA refereeing have told referees to be strict on handling. Whereas Howard Webb has done the opposite. That’s why you’ll see the English FIFA badges referees judging handball decisions completely differently in the EPL than the ECL.
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Collina hasn't? Rosetti was talking as if handball isn't even a subjective decision, he may as well go with it's an offence if it hits the hand.
 
bester said:
Collina hasn't? Rosetti was talking as if handball isn't even a subjective decision, he may as well go with it's an offence if it hits the hand.
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They are much stricter on FIFA games than in the EPL, perhaps not as strict as UEFA granted but the EPL is almost certainly the most lenient on handling offences.
 
Big Cat said:
The Hemel Town game was interesting. Sort of a terrible watch, but in all the ways I like! They went out on PKs unfortunately
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Referee any good? I know him well and I think he's in with a shot at promotion to national list (which this appointment would probably back up)
 
These UEFA penalties though change games & determine who wins which is wrong if a ball is blasted at you, historic hand ball law was a hand ball had to be deliberate, why move the dial so much?
 
DJIC said:
These UEFA penalties though change games & determine who wins which is wrong if a ball is blasted at you, historic hand ball law was a hand ball had to be deliberate, why move the dial so much?
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Well, if we want to be picky, historically it was intentional, and that changed into deliberate at the same time CREF was introduced.

But deliberate (like intentional before it) was always a bit more than the dictionary definition might seem. (And as far as I can tell, contrary to how some people try to tie things to the word deliberate, there was not a change in application when we moved from intentional to deliberates.) unnaturally bigger came about as a descriptor of a kind of deliberate handling—deliberately leaving an arm somewhere it could be fortuitously hit to gin an advantage. In other words, it was to explain how to catch the sneaky offender.

IMO IFAB jumped the shark when it tried to put in lots of (poorly framed) specifics in the Laws—it created confusion. Alas, when they dropped that failed attempt, they felt the need to redefine “biggering” as something that was not deliberate rather than as a way to explain something that was deliberate (at least in the sense of not taking adequate precautions to prevent it). That was a huge mistake, again creating confusion. And there seem to be behind the curtain attempts to give guidance to take judgment away from refs and apply formulas. Now some think that any ball that hits a body part first cannot be a handball. But that isn’t (and shouldn’t be) a black letter rule. It often is a good a clue as to what the player was trying to do—but a player can be deliberately putting an arm somewhere to unfairly take up space and touch with a body part first.

All that said, I am with you that it should be deliberate (and sure we can throw in that “attacker who scores” exception if it makes people happy. Handball, like too many things, is trying to make the subjective objective in a way that doesn’t really work. (Though I would be curious the extent to which IFABs changes have moved the dial I. South America where it had become pretty close to any contact was an offense, and part of IfABs objective, supposedly, was to remove calls where handling was truly inadvertent.)
 
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