I wasn't the ref, but even if I was I'd not have done much different. No one benefits from a caution.
U8's non competitive
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I wasn't the ref, but even if I was I'd not have done much different. No one benefits from a caution.
"No one benefits from a caution" – I have to disagree.
You mention that subbing a player off is educational. I completely disagree. This approach, often seen in Academy football, misses the point. Being subbed off isn’t a real consequence, and most coaches wouldn’t hesitate to bring a player back on if it meant a better chance of winning.
As a player, I quickly learned what was acceptable and what wasn’t after receiving my first caution. For what it’s worth, I was once subbed off in a youth friendly for a tackle deemed "too strong." My reaction? Annoyance and frustration, because I believed the tackle was perfectly fair. Had I been booked in that situation, I might have understood the issue more clearly.
The phrasing you use—“appalling tackles”—sounds like it crosses the line from reckless into dangerous territory, possibly deserving a red card. As referees, we are paid to enforce the LOTG, not to do favours for players, teams, or coaches. Subbing a player off instead of issuing a caution can create inconsistency, leading to the infamous “last week’s ref” comparison.
To clarify, I’m not advocating for sending off 7 year olds, which ties back to my opening point: I don’t believe games at that level need qualified referees. However, as far as I am concerned, from U12 and up, players should be held accountable under the LOTG.
Obviously my point was specific to the u7s age group but no disagreement with the conclusion.
Seen some awful stuff at academies go unpunished because of 'expectations'
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Lumping “youth” together for this discussion doesn’t work. There is such a huge difference between U7 and U14 they can’t really be discussed together.
I think it is problematic that there aren’t guidelines on what to do about cards in the younger ages-X there should be so refs aren’t all on their own in figuring out protocols. AYSO in the US (the largest youth program) has the view that the younger players shouldn’t be shown cards because the public aspect is not age appropriate—so a 10U player can be cautioned, but the card isn’t used. The R talks to the player and the coach.
At 14U I don’t hesitate to give cards, though in my experience they are rarely earned at that level in the recreational level games. I gave one in a girls game where a player simply plowed through an opponent- oblivious, not malicious. I gently explained she need to play more under control and showed the card. Her mom complained to my AR (who had heard my very gentle discussion) that I was mean. Shrug.
I think it is problematic that there aren’t guidelines on what to do about cards in the younger ages-X there should be so refs aren’t all on their own in figuring out protocols. AYSO in the US (the largest youth program) has the view that the younger players shouldn’t be shown cards because the public aspect is not age appropriate—so a 10U player can be cautioned, but the card isn’t used. The R talks to the player and the coach.
At 14U I don’t hesitate to give cards, though in my experience they are rarely earned at that level in the recreational level games. I gave one in a girls game where a player simply plowed through an opponent- oblivious, not malicious. I gently explained she need to play more under control and showed the card. Her mom complained to my AR (who had heard my very gentle discussion) that I was mean. Shrug.
If we’re making distinctions, we shouldn’t lump UK football and US soccer together either—facetious comment aside.
That said, I don’t disagree with your point, but your comment actually brings this discussion full circle to my original argument: U8 games don’t need a qualified referee.
When a club or league chooses to appoint a qualified official, they should expect the match to be officiated according to the Laws of the Game. If little Jonny commits a reckless foul, then little Jonny should receive a yellow card. The problem arises when a qualified referee is put in a situation where yellow cards aren’t "expected."
As far as I’m aware, the LOTG are not flexible on the definitions of recklessness, violent conduct, or serious foul play. Whilst interpretation can be subjective, if a referee witnesses reckless play, VC, or SFP, they must issue the appropriate punishment—whether the player is 7 or 70 years old.
And this, again, brings the discussion full circle. Referees shouldn’t be appointed to U8, U9, U10, or U11 games just for "crowd management," as it’s often a losing battle. In many cases, cards aren’t expected, and abuse towards officials is tolerated far too readily.
U11s 100% need one if it’s 9 or 11 aside no question it needs a ref.
I bumped into a manager and team i'd not reffed for 4 years (u13s now) yesterday.
The manager said he was happy to have "an experienced ref" as there was a fight last time these 2 teams played. He also said he wasn't happy that all of thier away games were reffed by "kid refs just there for the money".
I reffed the game with no need for any cards etc.
After the game both managers complimentary and perfectly happy.
Restores my faith after last week's debacle.
The manager said he was happy to have "an experienced ref" as there was a fight last time these 2 teams played. He also said he wasn't happy that all of thier away games were reffed by "kid refs just there for the money".
I reffed the game with no need for any cards etc.
After the game both managers complimentary and perfectly happy.
Restores my faith after last week's debacle.
That's one similarity between OA and Youth! Three bookings inside 20 minutes for the home side yesterday in our local Dog & Duck league. All easily YC, ignoring them would have quickly seen the game deteriorate had they been ignored, yet "I killed the game", "You've killed us", "It's not the Premier League", "It's Sunday League" blah blah blah. It's amazing how quickly it all just becomes white noise, whether from players or parents!
It's why I made my comment about young refs learning in younger age groups first (eg 9v9, 7v7). Watched my lad yesterday afternoon and a signifcant size difference between both teams (U13s), with the big lads from the oppo kicking lumps out of ours without any disciplinary action, resulting in some of ours losing tempers and some very iffy challenges flying around. Barely a free kick given, and no sign of even a word being had let alone a caution. Thankfully coaches and parents behaved impeccably!
Was the ref there for the money but not to ref the game to a decent standard?
I don’t entirely disagree, but I think an OA game is far more likely to descend into chaos than an U8 match, with a higher risk of serious injury or even assault in the former. Additionally, I feel that the fact that U8–U11 games are non-competitive makes them a waste of a referee’s time. These matches could easily be officiated by a competent parent or volunteer.
From my experience, OA players will dispute almost every foul and caution, often citing the infamous "last week's ref" comparison. This season, I’ve been enjoying booking players who clearly aren’t used to receiving cautions. While I understand it’s "only Sunday league," I’m prepared to "kill the game" or "kill them" (metaphorically, of course) to prevent serious injuries or a mass confrontation.
It’s always surprising to look at the match reports in the Dog and Duck league I ref on and see games with no cautions.
Are the players truly that well-behaved? Unlikely.
Did the referee manage the game flawlessly without needing to issue cards? Possibly.
But more often than not, I suspect it’s because the referee chose not to enforce the LOTG, preferring to avoid the hassle from players in favour of an easier day.
And thereby causing issues for the next Referee who comes along !
Participants in mini-football are not accountable for their actions because they're 'babies'
Just like there are legal ages at which youths become accountable
I did Ref some baby football when my kids first started playing. My chances of showing a red card in those games approximated to zero
My chances of tying shoe laces every 5 minutes approximated to guaranteed. Crying was not uncommon (me)
Just like there are legal ages at which youths become accountable
I did Ref some baby football when my kids first started playing. My chances of showing a red card in those games approximated to zero
My chances of tying shoe laces every 5 minutes approximated to guaranteed. Crying was not uncommon (me)
The world has changed - the babies you talk of nowadays can swear at people from across the street and can use knives to hurt people. Babies are 0-2. The youngest age a person can be charged for a criminal offence in England is 10, though I think that these days, that should be lowered.
I don't know whether he was there for the money, or whether he was there to ref the game to a decent standard, or both, or neither.
I credit young refs for having the confidence to ref, regardless of motive, as I'd have never had that confidence at their age. I have no idea of that particularly young refs experience, how many games he'd done, how long he'd be doing it etc. It might have been his first game - in which case he did a decent job - or it might have been his second or third season, in which case there'd be elements of concern. It was not the point I was making though.
This seems like quite a leap from discussing U8 football. While your argument has some merit, delving into sociodemographics feels outside the scope of a refereeing forum.
I think it’s generally accepted that refereeing players aged 7-11 differs significantly from officiating those aged 12-18 or adults. For instance, if a 10-year-old swears at a referee, we’d address it according to the LOTG. However, if that same behavior was directed at a parent or volunteer, you'd like to hope they’d still be removed from the field.
Reckless or excessive challenges are uncommon in 10-year-olds, but they become much more frequent in older age groups and OA.
But the most important point, in my view, is that our experience as qualified referees is best applied to managing the behavior of 18-22 players, with a focus on preventing serious injuries and managing potential confrontations.
As a side note, I don’t believe referees should be assigned to youth games purely to manage crowds or unruly parents, as our only real option in those situations is to abandon the match. Moreover, many of these games are likely to be officiated by youth referees who may lack the experience or awareness to handle such challenges, potentially resulting in a loss of control over the game.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that if a club chooses to pay for a referee, that’s their decision, and the referee is well within their rights to accept the game. While this is factually true, I would question why clubs feel the need to pay for referees instead of relying on a parent or volunteer when the games are non-competitive. The only conclusion I can draw is that there have likely been multiple instances of dissent or abuse, resulting in no one willing to volunteer anymore.
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Again, over here in US, year after year, state after state, we lose 50% of our new refs within one year of training, and 50% more the following year. A 75% attrition rate, and getting worse. The reason? **** behavior from parents and coaches who start exhibiting that **** behavior when no one is around to control it.
There is an option here no one has mentioned. Instead of the younger refs wanting to move up and thinking kiddie soccer is a waste of their valuable time
, why not encourage the oldest refs who no longer have the legs to keep up with the young bucks to extend their careers reffing by reffing the Wee Ones?
I'm 75 with two artificial hips and an achilles tendon repair, and in addition to mentoring, that's what I do. We've started actively encouraging retiring refs to take on the Wee One games and it's making a difference, IMHO.
There is an option here no one has mentioned. Instead of the younger refs wanting to move up and thinking kiddie soccer is a waste of their valuable time
, why not encourage the oldest refs who no longer have the legs to keep up with the young bucks to extend their careers reffing by reffing the Wee Ones?I'm 75 with two artificial hips and an achilles tendon repair, and in addition to mentoring, that's what I do. We've started actively encouraging retiring refs to take on the Wee One games and it's making a difference, IMHO.
In
I would tend to agree with your first paragraph, but I think my reason for highlighting it was appropriate in relation to the post I was replying to. However, happy to go back to the specifics of football.