A&H

Sin Bins - are you finding they help?

Gamespoiler said:
I think you're getting overly anxious about the confrontational part of things. Fact is, when refereeing teenagers, you are going to have confrontations. For some of them, it is a badge of honour to receive a booking or a sin bin. Even a sending off. It is only when they start to mature and realise the effect on their team that they start to change and that comes down to parenting, coaching and the right culture in that team/club. By you avoiding sinbins, you are also making it harder for the next referee who will almost certainly get grief for using the sinbin in the correct way.

I would suggest to try to change your mindset and don't look at it as a confrontation, it's just like every other law of the game that you are enforcing, you are are there to enforce them. The player chooses to show dissent, it isn't an accident. Unless they have certain neuro issues which means they can't control their emotions.

Remember also, the player does not get a fine for a sinbin but they do for the other bookings so sometimes you are doing them a favour by sinbinning them.

What would help you also perhaps, is doing some lines. When you see other referees using the sinbin and you then hear the conversations on the sidelines, the first thing yo uwill hear is the coach or parent saying, 'what did you say'. That will be followed by, 'well you should keep your mouth shut' Followed seconds later by,'how long left in the sinbin ref?' That will be repeated on the minute every minute until you allow them back on.

Finally, I would say at least half of the time maybe more, when the player comes back on, they do at some point apologise to the ref even when passing about their comments. That feels really good and helps you with control.

Stick with it, best of luck, it's good that you are seeking advice on here.
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Sin bins now carry the same fine as the fa stopped making up the difference 18 months ago.
 
The Referee Store
I think Sin Bins are naff tbh. We’ve obviously had a tightening up on dissent at the top to an extent (which helps more imo) and now every game I have players calling out dissent before I have a chance to “he can’t say that ref”.

So let me just book them? The extra threat doesn’t work and like has been said, being on a yellow is often more impactful. Maybe a time out works on youth games better but adults just need booking. The threat of a second yellow is much much more deterrent.

Plus I hate that stupid bloody Rubix cube table of what combo of yellow and dissent yellow result in. Unnecessary complication of the system.
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
I think Sin Bins are naff tbh. We’ve obviously had a tightening up on dissent at the top to an extent (which helps more imo) and now every game I have players calling out dissent before I have a chance to “he can’t say that ref”.

So let me just book them? The extra threat doesn’t work and like has been said, being on a yellow is often more impactful. Maybe a time out works on youth games better but adults just need booking. The threat of a second yellow is much much more deterrent.

Plus I hate that stupid bloody Rubix cube table of what combo of yellow and dissent yellow result in. Unnecessary complication of the system.
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What makes no sense is that if a player is sin binned twice in a game they can be replaced after the second 8/10 minutes has elapsed.

2 yellows should always equal a red.
 
Kent Ref said:
Sin bins now carry the same fine as the fa stopped making up the difference 18 months ago
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The FA Referee department were looking introducing a £5 fine for sin bins to pay for a referee abuse hotline a few months ago...

They increased the fine for a standard yellow to £12 to cover the lost revenue from sin bins.
 
I was told that the FA paid the counties for "sin bin" yellows for a temporary period and this stopped in May 2022.
 
Kent Ref said:
I was told that the FA paid the counties for "sin bin" yellows for a temporary period and this stopped in May 2022.
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Clubs still don't get charged for Sin-Bins, which I don't think is an overly bad thing. Not sure how it works for 2 sin-bins but really this should be a fine of some sort.
 
After my first sin-binning, the lad’s manager came over at full time and thanked me. He said it was exactly what he needed and no other ref had done anything about his backchat. To be fair to the lad, when he came back on he never said a word and had a very good game.
 
DazN said:
After my first sin-binning, the lad’s manager came over at full time and thanked me. He said it was exactly what he needed and no other ref had done anything about his backchat. To be fair to the lad, when he came back on he never said a word and had a very good game.
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I think that's how it's supposed to work (shame that some coaches don't see it that way, though). I coach a youth team and I always thank refs for yellows and reds. I tell them that if they do certain things it'll result in cards, so I need the refs to back me up. It's the only way my youngsters will learn. One didn't go through, though. Which really riled me, as the player knows they've got away with it now.
 
BCMilan said:
I think that's how it's supposed to work (shame that some coaches don't see it that way, though). I coach a youth team and I always thank refs for yellows and reds. I tell them that if they do certain things it'll result in cards, so I need the refs to back me up. It's the only way my youngsters will learn. One didn't go through, though. Which really riled me, as the player knows they've got away with it now.
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Probably should have followed that through with County FA...
A) to get your punishment you want for the player.
B) to ensure the referee receives the relevant operational advice.
 
Some people are working very hard to justify allowing dissent to slide.
It's literally the easiest offense to identify.
If you're sin binning someone in less than 20% of your adult games, in most leagues you really are copping out.
We have the tools to deal with this and for some reason refs consider a failure if they have to use this tool. 90% if the time, it's nothing we could have done.
 
Gamespoiler said:
I think you're getting overly anxious about the confrontational part of things. Fact is, when refereeing teenagers, you are going to have confrontations. For some of them, it is a badge of honour to receive a booking or a sin bin. Even a sending off. It is only when they start to mature and realise the effect on their team that they start to change and that comes down to parenting, coaching and the right culture in that team/club. By you avoiding sinbins, you are also making it harder for the next referee who will almost certainly get grief for using the sinbin in the correct way.

I would suggest to try to change your mindset and don't look at it as a confrontation, it's just like every other law of the game that you are enforcing, you are are there to enforce them. The player chooses to show dissent, it isn't an accident. Unless they have certain neuro issues which means they can't control their emotions.

Remember also, the player does not get a fine for a sinbin but they do for the other bookings so sometimes you are doing them a favour by sinbinning them.

What would help you also perhaps, is doing some lines. When you see other referees using the sinbin and you then hear the conversations on the sidelines, the first thing yo uwill hear is the coach or parent saying, 'what did you say'. That will be followed by, 'well you should keep your mouth shut' Followed seconds later by,'how long left in the sinbin ref?' That will be repeated on the minute every minute until you allow them back on.

Finally, I would say at least half of the time maybe more, when the player comes back on, they do at some point apologise to the ref even when passing about their comments. That feels really good and helps you with control.

Stick with it, best of luck, it's good that you are seeking advice on here.
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Great post.

You are there to enforce the LotG. Get used to it! You are the one that will keep their head while all are losing theirs. It will come and you will be able to handle your emotions better (and that will be a rewarding journey).

Run the line and learn from more experienced refs. It’s the fast track to better matches!
 
I came into men’s football through 10 Open Age matches on the line in my first season. I didn’t see a single SinBin, and I saw at least one occasion the caution was put down as C1-AA, not dissent.

I would still reccomend running the line for experience, but I would never recommend taking what you see from more experienced refs as the gospel, but maybe that’s just me.

deusex said:
If you're sin binning someone in less than 20% of your adult games, in most leagues you really are copping out
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Last season I was SinBinning in maybe 30-40% of adult games, and I think there were times where I totally could’ve managed it differently.

This season that number is around 15% for me, and I’m managing players better, talking my way through things, involving skippers more. I find that’s been more effective in reducing dissent than the SinBin ever has, and actually has been of greater benefit to everyone’s experience.

I’m not totally against them, but I’m also not totally for them.
 
I think SBs are great, Saturday SB goalkeeper who thought questioning a throw in on the half way line was a good idea.

A loud “you F$#%} cheat” at the CAR.

Some colleagues might have gone red?

Amusing when his team-mates were adamant you can’t sin bin a GK! Hope he has learnt his lesson.
 
deusex said:
Some people are working very hard to justify allowing dissent to slide.
It's literally the easiest offense to identify.
If you're sin binning someone in less than 20% of your adult games, in most leagues you really are copping out.
We have the tools to deal with this and for some reason refs consider a failure if they have to use this tool. 90% if the time, it's nothing we could have done.
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This is a truly bizarre comment in my opinion. Sin bins don't need a quota, and nobody is working hard to "justify" dissent. They are a tool available to us to utilise, along with the list @george.g provides (managing players better, talking my way through things, involving skippers more).

I have sin-binned in 12% of my matches this season, and I'm very happy with that figure. The leagues I officiate in send us our monthly club marks and judging by my high 'match control' score, I feel confident I'm doing ok using the sin bin at the most optimum times.
 
BreakingBrad said:
Completely agree, had this exact scenario at the weekend....team losing 2-1, striker through on goal, goes down under challenge in area but I conclude not careless and no foul (satisfied I got it right)....striker goes mental....am confident a sin bin at that point would have resulted in total loss of control especially with teammates and coaches similarly riled.
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As stated above, I often try to display some empathy in these situations. I got stuck in a rut about a month ago when my dissent tolerance level was far too low and I produced far too many sin bins. Now I look to 'match' the player. It's likely they'll be very frustrated when you turn down their penalty or DOGSO appeal after they've just sprinted 30/40 yards and lost the ball. If the player wants to shout, I'll shout back (no swearing, of course) but I raise my profile by increasing my volume so players around me know I'm dealing with the disagreement/ dissent, I often find players have more respect for you after this too. Granted, this may not be great for youth football but certainly OA. Potentially a controversial approach but I've now found a happy middle ground and a good dissent tolerance level after a sticky patch.
 
sunnycrofter said:
This is a truly bizarre comment in my opinion. Sin bins don't need a quota, and nobody is working hard to "justify" dissent. They are a tool available to us to utilise, along with the list @george.g provides (managing players better, talking my way through things, involving skippers more).

I have sin-binned in 12% of my matches this season, and I'm very happy with that figure. The leagues I officiate in send us our monthly club marks and judging by my high 'match control' score, I feel confident I'm doing ok using the sin bin at the most optimum times.
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If you genuinely only get dissent (of a sufficient level to warrant a card) in 1 out of 8 games then your league is fantastic or you are head and shoulders above my refereeing ability (quite plausible).
The No1 biggest factor in how much dissent I will get in a league is the actions of the other refs in it.
Nothing worse than turning up to referee a team that have been allowed to get away with murder for half a season.
 
I think sin bins CAN be excellent. Sometimes they have the desired effect.

I’d like to see them change it slightly. Keep the 10 minutes, but make it also count as a normal yellow, and include the admin fee/fine.

Out of 32 middles this season I have given 6 sin bins. One of which was on Saturday - only issue on Saturday is had I have given one 20 mins earlier, my game would have been far easier!!

In the other side of the argument, I’ve had it when giving a sin bin has unleashed years of trapped upset and resulted in a barrage of swearing - resulting in a red card (not this year, yet!).

I know it’s not the “done thing” but for sin bins I do sometimes flash the card and deal with the admin later - I mentioned this to an observer where I did this when being assessed and (luckily) he understood the common sense.

Refereeing is for everyone - loads of really experienced people on this forum - try a few different things.

Happy to chat on PM if you want to speak further.
 
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