A&H

Nigeria v Argentina

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Seeing as we arent 100% on the protocols being used its possible that the VAR has said its hit his hand you need to come and decide if deliberate as its an opinion call and not fact.
Personally I think the VAR should have sufficient ability to call no offence at least.
 
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My thoughs on the handball-no pen incident. As @cwyeary said it seems unlikely two experienced top class FIFA referees, VAR thinking its a clear handball and recommending a review and CR thinking it is not a handball.

I don't believe VAR ever recommended a review. CR initiated it under pressure from players and only did it to remove any doubt and confirm his own original decision. The short time he took to review (5 seconds) and his body language after the review supports this. My guess would be VAR would have said something like "I don't think its handball but you may want to check it for yourself".

Here is incident. https://ok.ru/video/799371102754?fromTime=2732
 
one said:
My thoughs on the handball-no pen incident. As @cwyeary said it seems unlikely two experienced top class FIFA referees, VAR thinking its a clear handball and recommending a review and CR thinking it is not a handball.

I don't believe VAR ever recommended a review. CR initiated it under pressure from players and only did it to remove any doubt and confirm his own original decision. The short time he took to review (5 seconds) and his body language after the review supports this. My guess would be VAR would have said something like "I don't think its handball but you may want to check it for yourself".

Here is incident. https://ok.ru/video/799371102754?fromTime=2732
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Already alluded to but that has been the worst part of this world cup is players hounding referees for replays. It's exacerbated a problem it was intended to fix. Thst said if the protocol/lotg were applied players should have been cautioned.
 
cwyeary said:
I have an even bigger problem with this one compared to Iran - Portugal.

The ref is Cakir. The VAR is Orsato. They are both elite category UEFA refs. We probably shouldn't have the case where one thinks this was a clear and obvious error and the other doesn't when they've had the exact same instruction. I think Cakir was correct with his decision and Orsato should not have asked for an on field review.
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This is exactly the point I was trying to make. The fact that the laws as written don't clearly define if this should be a penalty or not is a serious problem in the way the laws are written. How are we supposed to do our jobs consistently when two of the top ref's in the world can't agree?

one said:
My thoughs on the handball-no pen incident. As @cwyeary said it seems unlikely two experienced top class FIFA referees, VAR thinking its a clear handball and recommending a review and CR thinking it is not a handball.

I don't believe VAR ever recommended a review. CR initiated it under pressure from players and only did it to remove any doubt and confirm his own original decision. The short time he took to review (5 seconds) and his body language after the review supports this. My guess would be VAR would have said something like "I don't think its handball but you may want to check it for yourself".

Here is incident. https://ok.ru/video/799371102754?fromTime=2732
Click to expand...
The on field referee does not have the power to initiate reviews. So what you're suggesting is a major deviation from protocol that's almost as concerning as the handball inconsistency anyway!
 
GraemeS said:
denying the opponents a really good chance as a result.
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What, in the name of all that's holy, has that got to do with whether it was deliberate? It can only be decided on what went on before or at the moment of contact, not what might have happened afterwards.
GraemeS said:
The point I'm trying to make is that if the ref had given that, I don't think we could have pointed at the lawbook and said he was wrong.
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Given that there was no "movement of the hand towards the ball", that it was an "unexpected ball" and that "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence", I think we could absolutely point to the law book.

I'm not saying it isn't debatable but for me, what's in the law points much more towards this not being deliberate, than the other way round.

Remember, the law says it has to be "a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm." Think about that for a moment. For me, there is no way the player has deliberately made his arm make contact with the ball in this incident.
 
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I think the handball in discussion is a good example. In this case (and in other similar cases) the decision would be no offence but you suspect that what you think you saw may not be correct. Eg the ball hit the hand first and not the head. That suspecion and the seriousness of the incident is enough to initiate a review.
 
GraemeS said:
Fair enough, I stand corrected. That seems contradictory to an extent to the idea that a referee has to made a decision though? So he can make a decision, knowing full well that he's got no idea and then initiate a review?
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I think there's another way to look at it. The protocol says that the referee can't deliberately avoid making a decision on something he's seen and leave it to VAR but if he suspects he has missed making a decision on a potentially match-changing incident (presumably because he was unsighted) he can call for a review.
 
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