A&H

Match Control - AA

This is another one of those interminable debates about tolerance level.

Some say if it's offensive to me, others say, no one else heard it and others say it's perfectly acceptable where I come from. My view at this point in time, which may contradict or agree with any viewpoint previously expressed (and I make no excuses for that) is
  • am I offended by the words/gestures? If yes, red card
  • who heard it? If only me and I'm not offended, then it might be a yellow card or an almighty bollocking with captain in tow
  • would my 11 year old son be offended by the words/gestures? If anyone else heard it and I think my 11 year old would be offended by it, then it's a red card.
Anyone looking for hard and fast guidance on this matter might want to ask someone else.
 
The Referee Store
ref craig said:
I do it for a reason if it gets repetitive if it gets to this stage I think no more needs to be said
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That's why there are mods here. Leave them to do their jobs.

Ironic that your repetition is in response to apparent repetition!
 
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Darius said:
If my wife's called me worse in the last week it's play on. If she hasn't then it's card worthy.

Is this not how we're supposed to do it?
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There you have it. If it's outside your normal experience, then your back pocket has got to be twitching.
 
Padfoot said:
Rubbish.

Its starred for a reason.......
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Yes, but that still doesn't tell us what the word was and if you don't know what it was, you can't say if it was worthy of a dismissal. It would be the same principle as sending off a player for saying something you didn't hear, but that you think would probably have been offensive if you had heard it. If you don't know what words were said, you have absolutely no basis on which to judge whether the player deserves to be sent off.
 
I'm interested in this debate.

On Saturday I red-carded a player for saying "****ing hell ref!" after a decision he didn't like. I would not normally do so - I agree with Minty that this is far less serious than "**** off ref!" - but I did on this occasion for these reasons.

1. this player was the away captain, and a classic 'Mr Angry'
2. I had already warned an away player, with the captain present, that swearing in any sentence aimed at the ref is dangerous
3. he had repeatedly, loudly, 'encouraged' his team mates by pointing out that they were three goals down but two of them were due to refereeing bias

So with 3 minutes left to play and no chance of making any difference to the result I decided to do the next referee a favour and take a less liberal interpretation of 'offensive language'. Upon sober reflection I don't regret it one bit.

I shouldn't think my club marks will be very high though ;)
 
Interesting discussion; I think tolerance level manifests itself here more than in any other area of law, hence the difficulty reaching consensus.
I had an U14 game the weekend just gone, and fairly early on a home defender misplaced a pass and cursed himself loudly (for f's sake) as the ball rolled out of play. Immediate appeal from player just behind me, but half-hearted enough to know he wouldn't get anything. Later that half the same player responded similarly to another mistake (f****** hell), and again I ignored it, as it didn't meet OFFINABUS criteria. However, at that point should I have had a word given the presence of spectators? And does age group make a difference here?
 
@Trip , my personal opinion... Harsh. Thats a vent of frustration in my opinion and not a gesture at you personally. Yellow would have sufficed there. Again, my opinion. If you were to send off every player that verbally disagreed with your decisions in that sense, you'd abandon every game!
 
@DB you're right, but I don't send off every player that verbally disagrees with me. Only captains who swear loudly at me after being present during a warning for the same thing earlier in the match.

To be frank I should probably have cautioned him for dissent earlier.

@SLI39 I think at U14 level I might have a word and ask him to tone it down a bit, but unless it's really extreme I don't think I'd take any action for players swearing at themselves.
 
Trip said:
3. he had repeatedly, loudly, 'encouraged' his team mates by pointing out that they were three goals down but two of them were due to refereeing bias

So with 3 minutes left to play and no chance of making any difference to the result I decided to do the next referee a favour and take a less liberal interpretation of 'offensive language'. Upon sober reflection I don't regret it one bit.
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What exactly did he say? And did you address it earlier?
 
Trip said:
@DB you're right, but I don't send off every player that verbally disagrees with me. Only captains who swear loudly at me after being present during a warning for the same thing earlier in the match.
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Still harsh. You had the Captain there to warn another player about conduct, not him personally. I'm not disagreeing with your actions as I weren't there, but the way you have put it across seems harsh. Just because he's a Captain doesn't mean that you can be harder on him than other players, just like it doesn't give him any special rights. Again, my opinion.
 
SLI39 said:
Interesting discussion; I think tolerance level manifests itself here more than in any other area of law, hence the difficulty reaching consensus.
I had an U14 game the weekend just gone, and fairly early on a home defender misplaced a pass and cursed himself loudly (for f's sake) as the ball rolled out of play. Immediate appeal from player just behind me, but half-hearted enough to know he wouldn't get anything. Later that half the same player responded similarly to another mistake (f****** hell), and again I ignored it, as it didn't meet OFFINABUS criteria. However, at that point should I have had a word given the presence of spectators? And does age group make a difference here?
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I would have had a word with him to stop the swearing ( i would not expect 13 year olds to be swearing like that) at the same time point out to him that the spectators can hear it.
I refereed an U18 match yesterday and said to the away blue to stop the swearing (ok, it was only a frustrated, mis-shot on goal swear word but too loud and spectators women/kids around pitch) nodded in agreement at me and didn't hear another from any of the players rest of match.
 
DB said:
Just because he's a Captain doesn't mean that you can be harder on him than other players, just like it doesn't give him any special rights.
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Interesting, I had an assessor tell me in a previous match that he would have cautioned a player for dissent "particularly since he's the captain." Since then I have held captains to a higher standard of behaviour. While the captain has no special rights in law it is I think generally accepted that their on-pitch role is slightly different from that of other players. They have a responsibility to their team that other players do not.
 
Trip said:
3. he had repeatedly, loudly, 'encouraged' his team mates by pointing out that they were three goals down but two of them were due to refereeing bias
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I would have sent him of there and then. This is no different to calling a cheat. For me this is worse than any other C word.

Also can we please at least use the first and the last letter of the starred words. There are a lot of four letter words :)
f**k
s**t
p**s
c**t
c***t
....
 
SLI39 said:
Interesting discussion; I think tolerance level manifests itself here more than in any other area of law, hence the difficulty reaching consensus.
I had an U14 game the weekend just gone, and fairly early on a home defender misplaced a pass and cursed himself loudly (for f's sake) as the ball rolled out of play. Immediate appeal from player just behind me, but half-hearted enough to know he wouldn't get anything. Later that half the same player responded similarly to another mistake (f****** hell), and again I ignored it, as it didn't meet OFFINABUS criteria. However, at that point should I have had a word given the presence of spectators? And does age group make a difference here?
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Can you explain the OFFINABUS criteria, as you put it, as written in the LOTG?
 
In my match yesterday, I've sent off a goalkeeper that was continually swearing for anything. After one of my decision, he just went... F**k off, not at me but loud enough for everyone to hear. Called him to me and in a loud voice I told him... I've walked players for much less, now get back in goal and I don't want to hear a pip from you. After a scored penalty, the f**king cheating c**ts came out. Early shower for him.called both captains, told them that any further incidents the cards will come out.
Similarly, last season in a U11 match a player said... F**k off ref... My reply was like: thank you player for suggesting to go and have sex with myself... I have an early present for you, here have a cherry. Red card shown an early trip home.
 
DB said:
@Trip , my personal opinion... Harsh. Thats a vent of frustration in my opinion and not a gesture at you personally. Yellow would have sufficed there. Again, my opinion. If you were to send off every player that verbally disagreed with your decisions in that sense, you'd abandon every game!
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A tad late to the party but I'd agree. I can understand where the red has come from - if the team's capatain has insinuated that you're being bias, and relaying that view to his teammates in an attempt to further pressure you into making decisions, I'd argue that could be a red card-worthy offence.

He's essentially declaring his view that you @Trip is a 'cheat' by doing so, and as such I'd argue that it's a red. With no offence intended, @Trip's story suggests to me that he agrees in some respect, but perhaps found a 'reason' to go back and retrospectively punish him for that through a 'weaker' reasoning in the form of him shouting eff off. To me, it sounds like you got to the right conclusion in the end, but it might have came a little earlier?
 
Trip said:
Interesting, I had an assessor tell me in a previous match that he would have cautioned a player for dissent "particularly since he's the captain." Since then I have held captains to a higher standard of behaviour. While the captain has no special rights in law it is I think generally accepted that their on-pitch role is slightly different from that of other players. They have a responsibility to their team that other players do not.
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I disagree. Captains are captains at grassroots level for a few reasons:
  1. They are the loudest player on the side
  2. They are the longest serving member of the team
  3. They could be the best player technically
  4. They are friends with the manager.
Very rarely is it because they have any leadership qualities or qualifications. I don't agree with your observers comments I'm afraid. A captain is a player with no privileges and will be treated as such in my games. They will have the exact same treatment as any regular player. However, I regularly point out to Captains when I end up having a word with them that it is their responsibility to set an example, not be an example.
 
DB said:
I disagree. Captains are captains at grassroots level for a few reasons:
  1. They are the loudest player on the side
  2. They are the longest serving member of the team
  3. They could be the best player technically
  4. They are friends with the manager.
Very rarely is it because they have any leadership qualities or qualifications. I don't agree with your observers comments I'm afraid. A captain is a player with no privileges and will be treated as such in my games. They will have the exact same treatment as any regular player. However, I regularly point out to Captains when I end up having a word with them that it is their responsibility to set an example, not be an example.
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After the coin toss, i make sure the captains are aware they are no different in my eyes than any other player, they are only responsible to keep their players in order and should set an example themselves throughout the game.
 
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Trip, I agree with others that the red card was harsh, but on my pitch, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to swear, he'd have walked the first time he questioned my impartiality.......
Don't just do it right, do it right first time.....
 
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