who has which flag...
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Southerner In The North
Well-Known Member
Doesn’t exist on Northern or Women's National as often named first but never been senior but for woman's I have been paired a lot with 4s from mens so would make zero sense me being senior.
Because there is so much to write about your performances, there isn't space on the forms...
you've absolutely wounded me
Seniority comes from the highest qualified official, not who the referee choices. That only applies if the referee goes of injured. Who acts bench side, etc is the choice of the referee - Seniority goes not require you to be bench side.
On the choice of flags, if there is a programme then the first named takes the chequered flag (it used to be Red in the old days !!!!). So, using the order in MOAS is a good idea, but I don't think it has been mandated to the lower levels.
On the choice of flags, if there is a programme then the first named takes the chequered flag (it used to be Red in the old days !!!!). So, using the order in MOAS is a good idea, but I don't think it has been mandated to the lower levels.
while you're right in general, in practice it will not 100% of the time that the highest qualified official is senior, for various reasons.
trust - I've had a 6 I trust as senior over a 5 I dont
experience - I've had a newer 5 as senior over a vastly more experienced 5 (who would have done a good job) to give the other liner the experience
If you go down, the L5 takes over the match as referee not a L6, regardless of your feelings/thoughts.
If you have 2 referees at the same level (either both L5 or L6), then it is the years at that level which decides who takes over. That is what seniority refers to, not who gets bench side.
Too often this have been confused.
Where is this taught? I'm not trying to be difficult, but you seem to be quoting explicit, hard-and-fast rules here.
I'm a relatively experienced referee who like everyone on this forum takes extra time to keep up to date with rules etc., and I've never been given any lessons or documentation on this. The idea that you pick the assistant you trust most, put them bench side and give them the fancy flag is something that's come through osmosis and being that assistant rather than through anything remotely formal.
If there are rules along the lines of what you're saying, we should surely all have them?
totally agree with this. there's so many L6/7s that would do a better job than some 5s that run my line both on benches side and in the middle if I go down
Understand the distinction between seniority in terms of who replaces in the event of referee injury vs who takes benchside aka 'who goes Senior' in common vernacular.
On choice of flags, to repeat my earlier post, unless it's different in different parts of the country and other countries, this is definitely not what is happening in practice up to and including Step 2. Bench side always gets the fancy flag irrespective of programmes, MOAS or anything else. That's learned behaviour because it's what everyone does as you come through the levels, not because I've ever seen it written down
Be careful about seniority as it can land you in trouble. It's fine to put the junior AR on benches, and sometimes sensible if the senior AR has bad history with one or both of the clubs. But if you go off injured it has to be the actual senior referee that takes over, as that is what the competition rules will say.
I had it on a supply league game years ago when I went down injured. One AR was a very old L5 who didn't have the best mobility (before fitness test requirements), the other a young and very promising L6 on promotion. I put the latter on the benches to give him experience, and he took over when I had to go off. I was categorically told afterwards that the L5 should have gone in the middle, and I had made a significant mistake that could lead to a replay if there was a protest.
Similar to EFL games where the 4th officials are ARs. If the referee goes down it won't necessarily be the 4th official that takes over, it will be the most senior of the ARs and 4th official. Not entirely sure how that is worked out in the days of specialist ARs, but assume it is the highest refereeing level they reached before specialising. There are some ARs that were L2a or L2b so I assume they would get the nod over L3s.
I had it on a supply league game years ago when I went down injured. One AR was a very old L5 who didn't have the best mobility (before fitness test requirements), the other a young and very promising L6 on promotion. I put the latter on the benches to give him experience, and he took over when I had to go off. I was categorically told afterwards that the L5 should have gone in the middle, and I had made a significant mistake that could lead to a replay if there was a protest.
Similar to EFL games where the 4th officials are ARs. If the referee goes down it won't necessarily be the 4th official that takes over, it will be the most senior of the ARs and 4th official. Not entirely sure how that is worked out in the days of specialist ARs, but assume it is the highest refereeing level they reached before specialising. There are some ARs that were L2a or L2b so I assume they would get the nod over L3s.
I've only done a handful of Step 1 games as 4th, but in all of those potential replacement was worked out on the most senior of the other officials still active as a referee.
So not the specialist AR, irrespective of experience. As one AR said, 'I haven't done a middle for 5 years' !
I'm guessing that is the official protocol, but like the business with flags, it might just be learned behaviour because everyone else does it that way !
But in the Football League chances are there won't be any of the ARs or 4th official still active as a referee.
Certainly AR is likely to be specialised. If not the 4th is likely to outrank him anyway. If you get 2b you specialise as a ref now, or that is my understanding.
4th man will always be an active referee.
Not necessarily. There are always games each week where the 4th is a specialist AR. Seniority is then determined by the following:
I have never seen this document before. Tbh I'm glad this has come up as it's not something I've ways thought about.
So moving forwards it's who is senior, not who wants to be, and then who wants dugouts.
Also my response was in reply to a football league... ARs 4th man on football league?
Can we define "years at that level" as well?
I had a line the other day where one AR was a ref who'd been happily around at L5 for quite a few years, and the other line was a ex-L2 (I think) referee who had stepped down to L5 in the last year or two. Who has "more years at L5" of those two, the one who's actually been an L5 for 5 years or the one who was L2 for quite a few years and only recently stepped down?
I had a line the other day where one AR was a ref who'd been happily around at L5 for quite a few years, and the other line was a ex-L2 (I think) referee who had stepped down to L5 in the last year or two. Who has "more years at L5" of those two, the one who's actually been an L5 for 5 years or the one who was L2 for quite a few years and only recently stepped down?
The L2 would be the senior as he achieved the higher grade, the years at that level only where they are both the same grade and never progressed above.
Ah yes, blame the early start for me not reading point 1 first!
Still, I don't really like the idea this is a strict thing that must be followed with no deviation. The ex-L2 in question had stepped down due to the fact his mobility had decreased, and was also grumbling about having been given another game the following day. So both he and I were happy to have him on the "junior line" and up until this thread, I would have assumed that means the other AR takes over in an injury. The only other time I've worked with this guy, we were both assistants and the referee made the exact same decision - put me on the benches and him on the other side, again I was ready to come on if needed in that situation.
I've turned up to games while on the road to recovery from an ankle injury, or with a slight stomach bug, or having slept badly the night before - happy to go up and down the line for 90 minutes, but not necessarily feeling mentally or physically up for more than that. On those occasions I've asked to go Junior, and unless there's a brand new deer-in-the-headlights L7 on the other line, it's been the correct decision to go along with that, even if I am technically more senior. Referees aren't robots, certainly not below PL level, these soft factors have to be considered.
Still, I don't really like the idea this is a strict thing that must be followed with no deviation. The ex-L2 in question had stepped down due to the fact his mobility had decreased, and was also grumbling about having been given another game the following day. So both he and I were happy to have him on the "junior line" and up until this thread, I would have assumed that means the other AR takes over in an injury. The only other time I've worked with this guy, we were both assistants and the referee made the exact same decision - put me on the benches and him on the other side, again I was ready to come on if needed in that situation.
I've turned up to games while on the road to recovery from an ankle injury, or with a slight stomach bug, or having slept badly the night before - happy to go up and down the line for 90 minutes, but not necessarily feeling mentally or physically up for more than that. On those occasions I've asked to go Junior, and unless there's a brand new deer-in-the-headlights L7 on the other line, it's been the correct decision to go along with that, even if I am technically more senior. Referees aren't robots, certainly not below PL level, these soft factors have to be considered.