RefSix

Where does handball start for you?

#21
I did, that's because we're not premier League referees, if you were to make a call at grass roots where the ball hits 1/2 then it's a bigger headache than its worth because as I said nobody understands the laws as we do, I think that's a fair compromise considering 3 is well above the elbow anyway
.....what?

Part of your job as a referee is to make the unpopular decision. You need to have the courage to make the right decision, even if it's unpopular.

No matter what decision you make, one team won't accept it.

Deliberate handling encompasses the entire arm.

"It's hard to sell" is simply not an excuse for only penalising if it's below the elbow.

People sometimes go ballistic calling for a foul when it's simply hit the chest. What, are you going to blow for a FK then anyway?

Everyone else manages to go out there and deal with the fact that deliberate handling is the entire arm.

Do your job. Refereeing was never meant to be easy.
 

Sheffields Finest

Maybe I'm foolish, maybe I'm blind!
#22
i believe if we as referees are expected to punish from shoulder down to finger tips then the name of the law needs to be changed from "handball". For people that don't understand the LOTG as we do, it seem's unjust for us to punish when it hits above the elbow, i'm always getting shouts about the ball never making contact with the hand or lower arm.

however i believe it would be below 3 for me to call it
Players seem to understand the actual law better than you if you believe that post!!!
 
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one

RefChat Addict
#23
To add to @CapnBloodbeard post, not doing what is clear in law makes harder for next week's referee who is penalising a handball when the ball hits the upper arm.

I had a player telling me it's not handball while showing me the red mark on his bicep where it had hit the ball. Now I know where he was coming from :)
 
#24
.....what?

Part of your job as a referee is to make the unpopular decision. You need to have the courage to make the right decision, even if it's unpopular.

No matter what decision you make, one team won't accept it.

Deliberate handling encompasses the entire arm.

"It's hard to sell" is simply not an excuse for only penalising if it's below the elbow.

People sometimes go ballistic calling for a foul when it's simply hit the chest. What, are you going to blow for a FK then anyway?

Everyone else manages to go out there and deal with the fact that deliberate handling is the entire arm.

Do your job. Refereeing was never meant to be easy.
In what way am i making excuses?, i've stated my opinion when it was asked to everyone, right or wrong i'm entitled to it, if you don't agree that is fine you are more than welcome to challenge me through a conversation, however i think your being rather confrontational, especially since you know nothing about my ability or experience as a referee.
 
#25
Well, given you've just told everyone that you won't award a free kick if the arm from just below the Elbow up is used to deliberately handle the ball, despite what the law says, simply because you think it's easier then we all know something about you.
Ever heard the phrase 'last week's ref'? That's something you don't ever want to be..but you are making it harder for everyone out there by applying the laws incorrectly.
I find it curious that you are insistent on your position despite every single poster on here - and the laws - telling you that you are wrong. You need to be open to change as a referee - and be open to the possibility that you might be doing something wrong - otherwise you'll never grow and improve.
And stop this 'I'm entitled to my opinion' claptrap. This isn't a subjective decision. You are objectively, factually incorrect.
Entitied to your opinion? No, you're not. You have a responsibility to remain informed. Tired of people using that as an excuse for being wrong as if somehow they shouldn't be challenged on that. It's not a positive attitude to hold.
After all remaining informed (rather than perpetuating an incorrect "opinion") iswhat the players are paying you for.

Believe me - you cause far more problems for yourself when you make decisions unsupported in law. Because when somebody calls you out on it you have no defence. You know it and so do they.
A lot of us have learned that the hard way. If you find that it's difficult to sell a decision then you need to work on that (which we can help with) , not just avoid the decision
 
#27
Well, given you've just told everyone that you won't award a free kick if the arm from just below the Elbow up is used to deliberately handle the ball, despite what the law says, simply because you think it's easier then we all know something about you.
Ever heard the phrase 'last week's ref'? That's something you don't ever want to be..but you are making it harder for everyone out there by applying the laws incorrectly.
I find it curious that you are insistent on your position despite every single poster on here - and the laws - telling you that you are wrong. You need to be open to change as a referee - and be open to the possibility that you might be doing something wrong - otherwise you'll never grow and improve.
And stop this 'I'm entitled to my opinion' claptrap. This isn't a subjective decision. You are objectively, factually incorrect.
Entitied to your opinion? No, you're not. You have a responsibility to remain informed. Tired of people using that as an excuse for being wrong as if somehow they shouldn't be challenged on that. It's not a positive attitude to hold.
After all remaining informed (rather than perpetuating an incorrect "opinion") iswhat the players are paying you for.

Believe me - you cause far more problems for yourself when you make decisions unsupported in law. Because when somebody calls you out on it you have no defence. You know it and so do they.
A lot of us have learned that the hard way. If you find that it's difficult to sell a decision then you need to work on that (which we can help with) , not just avoid the decision

Let me be clear, i am not set in my ways and i am most certainly open to change, i simply do not have the amount of experience as some people on here, explaining my opinions is not being insistent, and i do believe when a question is asked i am entitled to my opinion even if you do not, i appreciate where you are coming from and i understand you will have way more experience than i, i don't shy away from making decisions, i call it as i see it.
in no way am i attempting to avoid making decisions, as a newish referee i am working with making decisions i am 100% confident with, yes it may be the wrong approach and in time i will learn, however if you had told me before that i was going around it in the wrong way i would have listened, i appreciate the points you have made, though please keep in mind not every person has the same experience and constructive comments (most of what you said above minus the passive aggressive telling me i'm not allowed an opinion) go a long way.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#28
Let me be clear, i am not set in my ways and i am most certainly open to change, i simply do not have the amount of experience as some people on here, explaining my opinions is not being insistent, and i do believe when a question is asked i am entitled to my opinion even if you do not, i appreciate where you are coming from and i understand you will have way more experience than i, i don't shy away from making decisions, i call it as i see it.
in no way am i attempting to avoid making decisions, as a newish referee i am working with making decisions i am 100% confident with, yes it may be the wrong approach and in time i will learn, however if you had told me before that i was going around it in the wrong way i would have listened, i appreciate the points you have made, though please keep in mind not every person has the same experience and constructive comments (most of what you said above minus the passive aggressive telling me i'm not allowed an opinion) go a long way.
Don't take anything to heart. Most of us mean well. Actually all of us mean well, some are less diplomatic than others. And some are less considerate of newer referees. Its easy to get passionate about one's point of view. Take what learning points you can, even out of the posts you don't like (as you have already pointed out). After all, we are all human, non of us super human ;)
 
#29
Don't take anything to heart. Most of us mean well. Actually all of us mean well, some are less diplomatic than others. And some are less considerate of newer referees. Its easy to get passionate about one's point of view. Take what learning points you can, even out of the posts you don't like (as you have already pointed out). After all, we are all human, non of us super human ;)
i'm always open to learn of course, thank you it's much appreciated :)
 
#30
Location of the shirt seam is a fair guideline.
This. As far as I'm concerned, in terms of a handling offence in football, the arm starts where the shoulder seam on a shirt normally is. At least, that's what I've always understood it to be and always used as the demarcation line. It's also the way I've observed it being implemented by the majority of referees including those operating at the top level.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#31
The deltoid muscle is what connects the arm and the shoulder. It is my belief that the deltoid is part of the shoulder so we are looking at just below the 2 before I would say possible handball offence but thats more the outer arm. The inner arm I am looking at more where the tendons attach the bicep muscle which is higher up the arm than the deltoid muscle extends to on the outer part of the shoulder.
 
#32
The deltoid muscle is what connects the arm and the shoulder. It is my belief that the deltoid is part of the shoulder so we are looking at just below the 2 before I would say possible handball offence but thats more the outer arm. The inner arm I am looking at more where the tendons attach the bicep muscle which is higher up the arm than the deltoid muscle extends to on the outer part of the shoulder.
That's an interesting way of looking at it but I'm not sure quite how practical it would be to try to apply it in a game, especially given that I would reckon a large proportion of referees would not be able to identify the exact location and dimensions of the deltoid muscle. On a football field with players in normal attire, the seam of the shirt is the easiest rule of thumb and the best thing to go by, for me. Let's not over-complicate things.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#33
The deltoid muscle is what connects the arm and the shoulder. It is my belief that the deltoid is part of the shoulder so we are looking at just below the 2 before I would say possible handball offence but thats more the outer arm. The inner arm I am looking at more where the tendons attach the bicep muscle which is higher up the arm than the deltoid muscle extends to on the outer part of the shoulder.
Good post
Not an exact science however
Dipping the shoulder is a big factor when making these calls because that implies a deliberate act
 

PinnerPaul

RefChat Addict
#34
My claim to fame - I worked in ITV Sport for 38 years before retiring.

When they had 'The Premiership' highlights, the producer, who knew I was a referee, rang me on Saturday evening and said 'I know you haven't seen it (it was the in the days before on line highlights) but the ball has hit Alan Shearer on the top of his arm/shoulder - is it handball?'

First and last time I have ever been asked for a decision without seeing the incident!:p:p
 

bloovee

Well-Known Member
#35
It's another book I can't find, but I think there used to be a "Learn the Game" illustrated booklet that had a diagram that showed a player with hands at his side and the "shoulder" (and thus not the arm) extended to roughly the level of the armpit. That was simple, and it meant you could still move that bit of the "shoulder" to control the ball.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#36
@ladbroke8745 must have a crystal ball
Maybe I have one too!
Dipping the shoulder is a big factor when making these calls because that implies a deliberate act
Exact match in today's game. Defender went for a number 2 in the box and I dully pointed to the spot, not because he should have gone before the game, rather because the shoulder dipped into the ball ;)
 

socal lurker

Well-Known Member
#37
This. As far as I'm concerned, in terms of a handling offence in football, the arm starts where the shoulder seam on a shirt normally is. At least, that's what I've always understood it to be and always used as the demarcation line. It's also the way I've observed it being implemented by the majority of referees including those operating at the top level.
For what its worth, the old US "Advice To Referees" had a diagram showing exactly this.
 
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