A&H

When is ball inside penalty area? (5 a side)

If it was simple, we wouldn't be arguing. It will take a winning goal in a vital World Cup game to get further clarification (it's clear enough for me) - GK uses his hands outside his area, not penalised, and launches an attack from which his team scores the winner.
 
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bloovee said:
If it was simple, we wouldn't be arguing. It will take a winning goal in a vital World Cup game to get further clarification (it's clear enough for me) - GK uses his hands outside his area, not penalised, and launches an attack from which his team scores the winner.
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A poll would be interesting. It seems the majority are in conflict with your view, including myself. If the ball is even milimetres over the boundary of the penalty area then it is considered in that area and can be handled by the keeper.
 
@bloovee I understand your point and I think it has some merit. But I think the other view is a more logical and practical outcome. To make the point here is a question.

The ball is just about to go out over the goal line between the 6 yard and 18 yard line. The majority of the ball is over the goal line. The keeper stops it from going out by putting his hand behind the ball (outside the FOP). What is your decision?

In effect we have a keeper who has deliberately handled the ball while in play, with contact being outside the PA. What if it was a field player?
 
one said:
@bloovee I understand your point and I think it has some merit. But I think the other view is a more logical and practical outcome. To make the point here is a question.

The ball is just about to go out over the goal line between the 6 yard and 18 yard line. The majority of the ball is over the goal line. The keeper stops it from going out by putting his hand behind the ball (outside the FOP). What is your decision?

In effect we have a keeper who has deliberately handled the ball while in play, with contact being outside the PA. What if it was a field player?
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The issue of offences outside the line has been addressed recently but I don't recall any problem treating it as if (over the goal line) the ball was in the penalty area. As I've said, someone suddenly decided that the practice of decades should be changed and it caught on when it shouldn't have.

I'm not sure but I have a feeling that for the first goalkeeper sent off in England for a DOGSO handball, the offence was close to the line.
 
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bloovee said:
The issue of offences outside the line has been addressed recently
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This is only for offences against someone which doesn't include handball. Even if did, what happened before this recent chnage?

bloovee said:
but I don't recall any problem treating it as if (over the goal line) the ball was in the penalty area.
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So why not be consistent and treat all partial in PA as fully in PA. Applying the law your way, you sometimes treat the offence in the PA and sometimes outside of PA even though in reality they all occurred outside the PA.

As I said, I can see merits in both applications, but I like the the other one better.
 
But tripping an opponent outside the FoP while the ball is in play is now treated as a DFK offence (always was for me).

You just have to say that handling offences outside the line are penalised by a DFK on the line (or penalty kick).

Then there's no need to reinterpret "within the penalty area" to mean "and sometimes not within the penalty area", to meet some false idea of consistency.

I just know I asked FIFA for clarity, they produced a diagram that seemed conclusive to me, but it seems with insufficient clarity for some (do French referees have any doubt?) so either they think it is clear enough, or there is some rearguard action at IFAB by those who like the "new" interpretation.
 
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Correctly, no. Appropriately, yes. Hence the change to make what was appropriate correct. Don't get distracted onto this, though.
 
bloovee said:
Correctly, no. Appropriately, yes. Hence the change to make what was appropriate correct. Don't get distracted onto this, though.
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I'm not -- I'm just coming to understand that you seem to interpret the Laws however you see fit, no matter what is actually the correct interpretation, so any discussion becomes somewhat pointless.
 
Getting distracted - if an attacker were off the FoP chasing a ball in play toward goal and a defender pushed him off the ball, would you have gone with letter of the law or given a DFK/penalty? Me, from what I saw from where I was, I always thought they were on the FoP.

On the present handball issue, I'm going with the letter and obvious meaning of the law, and arguing against a new interpretation that isn't in the laws.
 
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Bloovee bloovee.....the new interpretation is coming from you there mate :)

The GK may handle the ball inside his penalty area.
Lines form part of the area they enclose.
Thus, any part of the ball on the PA line means the ball is in the PA.
The only logical outcome from that is that wherever the handling on the ball is, the ball is inside the PA.

I mean, if the ball is 3/4 over the goal line, and a defender who is outside the field and running back on punches the ball away, are you going to award a PK or a DB? Even before the update to close the 'offences off the FOP' loophole. Because by your argument, you'd have to award a DB as the offence occurred off the FOP (I know you previously said you ignored that 'off the FOP' bit, but that's your choice to ignore a law. You at least know what the law is or was)

I've never heard of ANYBODY awarding a DFK against a keeper for handling the ball while the ball is inside the PA!

Bloovee, you seem to be arguing that a keeper standing on the edge of the PA with his arms wrapped around the ball, and 1/4 of the ball outside the PA, should be penalised with a DFK. Is that the spirit or intent of the law, do you think?
 
The last question is absolutely both the spirit and intent.

As to which is the "new" interpretation, maybe you didn't read my long post - someone said it was too complicated, but that demonstrates a perfect example of old (correct) and new (wrong) interpretation. (Go back far enough in the USSF Q&A and you'll find the old answer.)

Maybe the law has changed - but there's nothing in the laws to say it has. I thought the new diagram was explicit, but obviously not. I'm really not sure what the advantage is in changing the interpretation so that the keeper has an additional 14% of the FoP in which he can handle the ball (yes, I'm that sad I worked it out). It's not for consistency if (by your extension to defenders) a foul by a defender has to be in the PA to be a penalty but handball can be 8 inches outside and be a penalty.
 
bloovee said:
Nah, he's bottled it. Of course it can occur in reality, that's why there's a diagram telling the AR where to stand to spot the offence.
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I don't see how the diagram for goalkeepers releasing the ball is supporting your point. You could easily argue the position of the AR is so that he can identify when the whole of the ball has crossed the line which makes more sense. Furthermore, generally when the keepers release the ball (as per the diagram), their hand is on the PA side of the ball and not on the outside.

Anyways, the powers above have given their verdict.
 
one said:
I don't see how the diagram for goalkeepers releasing the ball is supporting your point. You could easily argue the position of the AR is so that he can identify when the whole of the ball has crossed the line which makes more sense. Furthermore, generally when the keepers release the ball (as per the diagram), their hand is on the PA side of the ball and not on the outside.

Anyways, the powers above have given their verdict.
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And that verdict can be summarised as "I wouldn't bother enforcing this law unless you have to", which doesn't sit wonderfully well with me to be honest!
 
one said:
I don't see how the diagram for goalkeepers releasing the ball is supporting your point. You could easily argue the position of the AR is so that he can identify when the whole of the ball has crossed the line which makes more sense. Furthermore, generally when the keepers release the ball (as per the diagram), their hand is on the PA side of the ball and not on the outside.

Anyways, the powers above have given their verdict.
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Elleray seems to be admitting it's an offence, he's just hiding behind spirit of the game to say it shouldn't be punished
 
And this is why, when you're pacing out ten yards to make sure the wall is the correct distance away from a free kick you should do anything you can to make sure it is not on the penalty area line! All you're going to do is to give yourself a decision to make where there is really no right answer.

As far as I'm concerned, the spirit of the Law is that the ball is inside the penalty area so can be handled by the goalkeeper. At the level most of us Referee at we are not likely to be in a position where it will be obvious that the GK's hands are outside but the ball is inside (I cannot see VAR coming to Jackie Bakers Rec in Ramsgate any time soon!).

If the ball is on the line when the 'keeper handles it, then the Direct free kick could also be on the line and therefore in the area! Therefore it should be a penalty kick for handling by a goalkeeper within his penalty area! Good luck selling that one!

Personally speaking, I'm not penalising this! If I think it's outside then it's a direct free kick. If I think it's inside then play on.
 
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one said:
I don't see how the diagram for goalkeepers releasing the ball is supporting your point. You could easily argue the position of the AR is so that he can identify when the whole of the ball has crossed the line which makes more sense. Furthermore, generally when the keepers release the ball (as per the diagram), their hand is on the PA side of the ball and not on the outside.

Anyways, the powers above have given their verdict.
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I explained above (in detail) my approach to FIFA which got no reply, but then the new diagram appeared. I took it to be conclusive that (on the face of it, and explicitly in the French version) it was clearly indicating that it was the position of the hands that matter.

I cited the Keith Hackett "you are the ref" answers that showed old and "new" interpretation. I've now pinned down the USSF asktheref answers which "changed" the interpretation; I challenged this at the time with Jim Allen and (I can't trace the email) he said something on the lines that they'd "developed their thinking" although - not necessarily with the same authority as Jim Allen - you can find the "new" interpretation before that, and the old (correct) interpretation after that. So I think I've proved that there was a deliberate move to change the interpretation (after a century of knowing what was meant) and it's obviously been successful, but that doesn't make it right.

I've got an email from FIFA suggesting that their "refereeing department" has people who favour the new interpretation, but in terms of any "official" directive I'm only aware of the new diagram, and (before people started overthinking it) the plain meaning of the goalkeeper only being able to handle the ball "within his own penalty area". Within, not anywhere outside.

USSF old: http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/goalkeeper-steps-out-of-penalty-area-with-ball-in-hand/
USSF new: http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/the-goalkeeper-and-the-penalty-area-line/

However you go with this (any converts?) there is no justification in law for giving a penalty against a defender who deliberately handles the ball if his hand is outside the penalty area.
 
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