The Ref Stop

When is ball inside penalty area? (5 a side)

Z

Zebsmattz

New Member
Hi,

Newbie so please be gentle ;]

I was goalkeeper in a 5 a side game at the weekend
Players aren't allowed in the box (penalty area) and they can't play the ball when it's in the box.
My question is simply: When is the ball in the box?
When the middle of the ball has gone over the line, or when the whole of the ball has gone over the line?
Ref said it was the latter, like when deciding if its a goal or not.
However, if that's the case, when is the ball outside the box when I roll it out?

Is there a definitive law regarding this please?

Thanks for any advice you can offer,

Zebs
 
The Ref Stop
Zebsmattz said:
Hi,

Newbie so please be gentle ;]

I was goalkeeper in a 5 a side game at the weekend
Players aren't allowed in the box (penalty area) and they can't play the ball when it's in the box.
My question is simply: When is the ball in the box?
When the middle of the ball has gone over the line, or when the whole of the ball has gone over the line?
Ref said it was the latter, like when deciding if its a goal or not.
However, if that's the case, when is the ball outside the box when I roll it out?

Is there a definitive law regarding this please?

Thanks for any advice you can offer,

Zebs
Click to expand...
The answer to yours specific question is not in the laws of the game (football) because the game you played was a derivative of football not actual 11 v 11 football. So you can look at it two ways; 1. The ref is always right. 2. Look at the rules of the competition you played in, it might cover it.

Now in football, for the purposes of handball (for example when is the keeper allowed to touch the ball), well the law is still not very clear but the commonly used practice is if any part of the ball is inside the penalty area (touching the line), handling is considered to be inside the penalty area no matter where the contact with the ball is. Although this is one of those divisive debatable areas which surfaces its head every now and then.
 
Hi Zebs,
Good thing you specified you were a player so we don't tell you to go read the laws :)

And sincerely, thank you for actually coming on here to ask!

As others have said, in any 'official' game, the lines form part of the area. So, the Penalty Area (PA) Lines are part of the PA.
If any sliver of the ball is on the line (with the rest on the main part of the field), then the entire ball is considered inside the PA.

That means if a sliver of the ball is on or above the line - and a defender deliberately handles the part of the ball that's outside the PA, it's a penalty - because it's where the ball is, not where the contact is (any other foul against a player, it's where the point of contact is).

Also means in that case, if the keeper handles it anywhere on the ball, it's fine because it's inside the PA.

Now, you're is a funny game with made-up, unofficial rules - but I presume they haven't written anything different into the rules there.

So basically, the ball is still inside the PA until it has wholly crossed the line.

But I recommend you be careful not to be releasing it right on the edge - in case the referee mistakenly thinks the ball has crossed the line (or in case it has and you don't realise it!).

Also, any rules questions like this, don't be afraid to ask your ref on the night. As long as you approach them calmly with a question and don't come off like you're trying to argue about something that happened they usually won't mind helping (for instance, you can ask them before the game) - although a few subscribe to the 'don't talk to anybody before/after the game' idea.
 
I actually wouldn't answer this question because you are playing 5 a side. Unless you are playing in some sort of official league with its own rules, the correct answer is something along the lines of "the rules are whatever they say the rules are". There's no point quoting the laws of the game or anything because I've played five a side where the ball can't go over head height, there are no throw in's or there are kick in's.

For the record though, my understand of 5/7/8 a side with similar rules that I've played in is if you are attacking you can score if the ball is on the line but if the majority or in some cases any of the ball is in the area then it's classed as "in the area" and no goal. There is a borderline area though, and it's just down to the referee on the night to call it. It will never be exact, I doubt it's that serious of any issue but if it is, you'll need to clarify with the ref or the organisers who will tell you but you are basically at their mercy because they can do what they want.

I don't think there is a correct answer or any correct law at least in terms of small sided games.
 
Normally when there's some sort of modified rules game, the intention is that the LOTG prevail unless there's been something specific. I often see that actually written into the rules.
But you are right that they could have written anything into the rules so OP could always ask one of the refs - or even check out the rules themselves.
 
Thanks for all the info there.
It's quite a friendly league and we got completely hammered on the night (!) so it wasn't a big issue!
I was just chatting with the ref afterwards and we were discussing what the exact rule is.
I wasn't convinced about his "whole ball must be over the line" and it sounds like that's incorrect as far as 11-a-side goes.
He admitted other refs would probably call it differently.

As you say, it's his decision on the night.
I have tried to ref my son's games myself and crikey it's hard.

Cheers,

Zebs
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Hi Zebs,
Good thing you specified you were a player so we don't tell you to go read the laws :)

And sincerely, thank you for actually coming on here to ask!

As others have said, in any 'official' game, the lines form part of the area. So, the Penalty Area (PA) Lines are part of the PA.
If any sliver of the ball is on the line (with the rest on the main part of the field), then the entire ball is considered inside the PA.

That means if a sliver of the ball is on or above the line - and a defender deliberately handles the part of the ball that's outside the PA, it's a penalty - because it's where the ball is, not where the contact is (any other foul against a player, it's where the point of contact is).

Also means in that case, if the keeper handles it anywhere on the ball, it's fine because it's inside the PA.
Click to expand...
This is nonsense. The GK may handle the ball within the penalty area - you're saying he can handle it outside the PA and an outfield player gives away a PK for an offence outside the PK.
 
bloovee said:
This is nonsense. The GK may handle the ball within the penalty area - you're saying he can handle it outside the PA and an outfield player gives away a PK for an offence outside the PK.
Click to expand...
No, he's saying that if the ball is on/over the line (any part of it at all), then the ball is considered inside the PA.

Which is EXACTLY the case.
 
bloovee said:
This is nonsense. The GK may handle the ball within the penalty area - you're saying he can handle it outside the PA and an outfield player gives away a PK for an offence outside the PK.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. I am pretty sure he is saying if the ball touches any part of he line then the offence is considered to be inside the penalty area. And off course if its the keeper ten it can't be an offence.

This has been an accepted interpretation for many referees and assessors/observers for a long time now and was disputed by some others. The law doesn't specifically back it up one way or other but the recent change that an offence outside the field of play by a player is considered to be on the nearest line gives it some backing.

EDIT: Some doubling for posting at the same time as Alex :)
EDIT 2: There may be some historical IFAB/FIFA guidelines/Q&A on it. Maybe @Peter Grove can help.
 
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one said:
The law doesn't specifically back it up one way or other but the recent change that an offence outside the field of play by a player is considered to be on the nearest line gives it some backing.
Click to expand...
Well, the Law does say that the lines belong to the area which they encompass... So the PA lines are part of the PA.

To me that seems sufficient backing... :)
 
AlexF said:
Well, the Law does say that the lines belong to the area which they encompass... So the PA lines are part of the PA.

To me that seems sufficient backing... :)
Click to expand...
I am not going to disagree with that. I did say "specifically".

The flip side is (and I may be preempting @bloovee 's response here) restarts are from the location of the offence and since contact was made outside the PA, that is where the offence was. The analogy there is if an opponent is fouled and contact is outside the PA, even if most of the opponent's body is inside the PA, the free kick is outside. However the accepted interpretation for the contact with the ball is not looked at the same way.
 
See the diagram in the "practical guidelines" section: "The AR must take a position in line with the edge of the penalty area and check
that the goalkeeper does not handle the ball outside the penalty area."

See law 12: it's an offence to handle the ball deliberately (except for the GK within their own penalty area).
The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area.

See law 14: A penalty kick is awarded if a player commits a direct free kick offence inside their penalty area or off the field as part of play as outlined in Laws 12 and 13.

It was the Americans that started this nonsense - we'd had nearly a century of everyone understanding the plain meaning of the law until the Americans came up with the unjustified nonsense that the law on in and out of play should be extrapolated to reckon the ball was "in" the area when most of it wasn't. Before 1912 the GK could handle the ball within his own half - could the GKs both legitimately have handled the ball on the halfway line either side of the line?

If anyone can cite any official guidance on this, I'd be surprised. It's just a modern invention that people have gone along with. I can cite my emails to FIFA - it didn't get the explicit guidance I asked for but the diagram did appear. (I think someone may have corrupted its latest iteration - the cartoon AR was originally dead in line with the edge of the area but is now not dead in line.)

I like the French version of the diagram which is helpfully explicit: check that the GK "does not touch the ball with the hands outside the penalty area".

For decades, it always was the position of the hand that mattered. It still is.
 
English is a wonderful language. In the title of the song "Black magic woman" (Carlos Santana), is it saying the "magic woman" is black or is it saying the magic is black?

"the goalkeeper does not handle the ball outside the penalty area", is "outside the penalty area" referring to the ball or the handling? Or could it be referring to the goalkeeper?

bloovee said:
For decades, it always was the position of the hand that mattered. It still is.
Click to expand...
Do you have anything to back this up outside your interpretation of the law? I am specifically asking for "the position of the hand that mattered".

Hopefully someone has something concrete to clear this up. Or some is asking IFAB. It would at least clear it up for those who read this forum.
 
one said:
English is a wonderful language. In the title of the song "Black magic woman" (Peter Green), is it saying the "magic woman" is black or is it saying the magic is black?

"the goalkeeper does not handle the ball outside the penalty area", is "outside the penalty area" referring to the ball or the handling? Or could it be referring to the goalkeeper?

Do you have anything to back this up outside your interpretation of the law? I am specifically asking for "the position of the hand that mattered".

Hopefully someone has something concrete to clear this up. Or some is asking IFAB. It would at least clear it up for those who read this forum.
Click to expand...

Corrected your typo.....
 
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Here we go: from my email to FIFA, 08/11/2006


I have found it hard to get a consistent view on where the goalkeeper may legitimately handle the ball. I always thought I knew what the law meant, which is that “except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area” meant the keeper could handle the ball only within the boundary lines of the area. Until last year, the USSF’s “Ask the Referee” website took the law to mean exactly that, but it is now arguing that the goalkeeper can handle the ball “in the penalty area”, defined as when the ball is not wholly outside the area (that is, it could be overhanging the line by some 20cm). This is based on applying the provisions of law 9 to law 12 (which should also mean allowing goal kicks and corners to be taken with the ball hanging over the line markings); I regard this as an unjustifiable extension of one law to another.

I did ask the FA but did not get a definitive response. I suspect that some within the FA structure may support this, and it does seem to have caught on and may be being taught, but referees in the English Premier League (judging by some recent decisions) seem to hold to the “traditional” interpretation that the goalkeeper may not touch the ball outside the boundary lines of the area.

I argue strongly against the “new” interpretation, which has several problems:

  1. Historically, the goalkeeper could handle within his own half, and presumably this did not allow a keeper to reach over the half-way line.
  2. Linguistically, the law (in all official languages) clearly means that “within the penalty area” applies to the act of handling, not the position of the ball.
  3. It makes “within the penalty area” mean something other than its plain meaning.
  4. It would mean a goalkeeper could legitimately touch a ball 20cm outside the area if the ball is “in the penalty area”, but if the ball is wholly outside the area it would be an offence, although the keeper’s hand was in exactly the same position. (Most who hold this view seem to think that a defender handling a ball “in the penalty area” should not concede a penalty unless his hand is in the penalty area, thus creating another inconsistency.)
  5. For officials, it is easier to judge whether a hand is on the ball outside the line, whereas for the new interpretation officials would need to see the edge of the ball in relation to the line and the hand in another position. In some cases it would be no more difficult than an assistant referee judging whether a ball has been kept in play, but at some angles (and without an assistant) it would be much harder to judge.
The only real argument for the new interpretation is that where the ball is over the touchline or goal line but still in play (including within the goal) any handling offence is deemed to be within the field of play.

I am sure that most players and spectators and commentators understand the law as I do. As the new interpretation seems to be gaining currency among referees, I believe some clarification is needed.

If I am right, a Q&A might help, or the law could be changed. In English, “except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area” could be “except for the goalkeeper within the boundary lines of his own penalty area”.

Law 9 might also be clarified, viz. “handling offences committed outside the boundary lines of the field of play but while the ball is in play are deemed to have been committed on the field of play”.

I would be grateful if you could consult the appropriate committee and respond (or put me in direct touch with an appropriate official).


I see that what I feared (under 4, that a defender handling outside the area has also got caught in this) is being applied by some. That really is nonsense - defender stops a ball going into the PA and it's a DFK but stops a ball coming out of the PA and it's a penalty even though his hand is in the same place outside the area). Just stick to what the law says.

I never got a reply but the diagram and wording in the additional instructions appeared .

And 01/11/2011:

I emailed you in November 2006 re the interpretation that the goalkeeper could handle the ball if part of the ball was in the penalty area (rather than only being able to use his hands within the penalty area).

Soon afterwards, coincidence or not, the laws included a new diagram (Interpretation and Guidelines section, Assistant Referees, diagram 4) that I thought confirmed the view that it was the position of the hands that mattered.

It is still being taught that the position of the ball is what matters.

USSF, until 2003 having supported the view that it is where the hands are that matters, changed its mind and are still promoting the “position of the ball” interpretation:

http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?cat=34 THE GOALKEEPER AND THE PENALTY AREA LINE (October 12, 2010)

I’m writing now because the regular feature strip in the Guardian, “You are the Ref”, has also now printed this interpretation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/13/trevillion-hackett-steve-bruce-sunderland
even though a previous strip had the opposite view
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/06/you-are-the-ref-robbie-savage#_

Assuming that FIFA did intend to support what I regard as the traditional interpretation, a revised wording might be needed; if not to law 12, the instruction to assistants might be changed:
The assistant referees must take a position in line with the edge of the penalty area and check that the goalkeeper does not touch the ball with his hands outside the penalty area

to become

The assistant referees must take a position in line with the edge of the penalty area and check that the goalkeeper does not use his hands outside the penalty area to touch the ball.


Again no reply, and no change. The reference to USSF in 2003 was that there was a Q&A with the "traditional" (correct) interpretation, then they came up with the "new" (wrong) interpretation. I'm not sure I can trace my email exchange with Jim Allen at the USSF but he said simply "we've changed our minds".
 
I wonder if the the no response is a sign of agreement with you or disagreement. Or possibly a sign if "you have made a simple question too long and complicated and I can't be bothered to read it" :P
 
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