The Ref Stop

What the?!

GraemeS said:
Whistle is clearly delayed until just after the goal, the noise you're hearing as a whistle I'm fairly sure is a scream from by the camera. Note the different tone to the whistle just after the "goal".

Other than that I agree - it's a tough situation, but the ref is the only one positioned to take the initiative and sort this out. As @Ben448844 points out, he's clearly delayed the whistle because the flag feels wrong to him, the mistake is not trusting that instinct and initiating a chat with at least one of the ARs.

I don't think either AR has standing to insist on a conference - AR2 has just made an on/offside call and can't be expected to overrule himself on a pass from the opposite touchline, and AR1 has a far worse view than the ref, as well as other reasons to possibly not be looking at the pass. It has to be the ref who decides to delay and work out what happened.
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Why would a referee without VAR "delay the whistle" until the goal is scored?. I'm convinced he blew it at around 11 seconds, if you look at him after the goal is scored his hands go nowhere near his mouth to actually blow the whistle (and no English referee at that level keeps the whistle in his mouth).

He has seen the flag and blown, then probably immediately thought what the **** have I just done. Been there, have the t-shirt.
 
The Ref Stop
JamesL said:
If nearside AR has the information, he HAS to give it.

If they are on buzzers, the buzzer does not let go and if he's not he doesnt stop waving the flag until he's had the referee over.

It's not about standing. As the referee, if I came in after this and the AR says, yes I could have told you that I'd be really unhappy and disappointed.

There's a lot of stuff we can't get involved in, but sometimes if we have the crucial piece of info, we have to step up, step outside the norm, and be counted and bail our colleagues out.
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Doesn't really matter though does it? The referee will have still blown the whistle, so the goal isn't getting allowed.
 
JamesL said:
If the whistle goes then there is nothing that can done that's true enough. in the clip the referee waits until the goal is scored so the opportunity is there.
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I still think he blows the whistle after 11 seconds. I just can't see any possible reason why he would wait for the goal to be scored, and then disallow it without going to speak to his AR. I can see the reason for the letting the goal be scored, for example the AR has flagged but the referee thinks it was played by a defender, but then as soon as the goal was scored he would be straight over to the AR to discuss.
 
I'm with @GraemeS and @JamesL, there's no whistle at 11s, more a shout/scream from elsewhere.

Agree with @santa sangria too, keeper is wise to all of this and restarts asap to prevent the ref really having any time to review the incident
 
I think it can be very hard to accurately discern actual whistles/timing on these types of videos. But I don't think it really matters for referee analysis. If the whistle blew, the goal can't be given. Period. (Though if it was blown before the ball was in the PA, it could be restarted with a DB to the team that should have scored. If the whistle hadn't blown, the R team should be discussing, and should be able to fix it. As with @RustyRef , I find it hard to square the lack of an immediate discussion with the AR with the R having withheld the whistle.
 
es1 said:
I'm with @GraemeS and @JamesL, there's no whistle at 11s, more a shout/scream from elsewhere.

Agree with @santa sangria too, keeper is wise to all of this and restarts asap to prevent the ref really having any time to review the incident
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The obvious question in that case is why on earth would the referee let the goal play out before blowing the whistle, but then doesn't go and talk to the AR? I just cannot see any possible reason or benefit of doing so. Could possibly understand if it was a grass roots referee, perhaps he's seen it happen on TV with VAR so thinks he should do the same, but this is a very experienced level 3 referee. It just makes no sense
 
RustyRef said:
The obvious question in that case is why on earth would the referee let the goal play out before blowing the whistle, but then doesn't go and talk to the AR? I just cannot see any possible reason or benefit of doing so. Could possibly understand if it was a grass roots referee, perhaps he's seen it happen on TV with VAR so thinks he should do the same, but this is a very experienced level 3 referee. It just makes no sense
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You can't assume rational thought here, or the goal would have been disallowed!

He's hesitated because his instincts tell him something is wrong, then he's whistled to follow the flag. The GK has rushed the FK to add time pressure and he's just gone with it rather than making a key decision against his AR.
 
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RustyRef said:
The obvious question in that case is why on earth would the referee let the goal play out before blowing the whistle, but then doesn't go and talk to the AR? I just cannot see any possible reason or benefit of doing so. Could possibly understand if it was a grass roots referee, perhaps he's seen it happen on TV with VAR so thinks he should do the same, but this is a very experienced level 3 referee. It just makes no sense
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A fair question, maybe he didn't quite recognise what the buzz was immediately? There's also a chance he's not on buzzers, I've done step 4 and 3 games without in the last season.
 
es1 said:
A fair question, maybe he didn't quite recognise what the buzz was immediately? There's also a chance he's not on buzzers, I've done step 4 and 3 games without in the last season.
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If he's not on buzzers that makes it even more unfathomable, and you are right that not all step 3 and 4 games will have them. When I was L3 I used buzzers but I did one in every 4 games without them, a failsafe to make sure I didn't become reliant on them.

Look at his body language though when the camera gets back to him after the goal, it isn't one of someone who has just decided to disallow the goal. And also the reaction of the keeper, he knows it has been disallowed well before the ball is in the goal and is racing to take the free kick. Not to give the referee no chance of speaking to assistants, rather because his team are 1 goal down late in the game. It was absolutely disallowed in the build up not after the goal, my guess is the referee was a bit befuddled and gave a rather non-confident blow on the whistle that isn't clear on the video
 
RustyRef said:
If he's not on buzzers that makes it even more unfathomable, and you are right that not all step 3 and 4 games will have them. When I was L3 I used buzzers but I did one in every 4 games without them, a failsafe to make sure I didn't become reliant on them.

Look at his body language though when the camera gets back to him after the goal, it isn't one of someone who has just decided to disallow the goal. And also the reaction of the keeper, he knows it has been disallowed well before the ball is in the goal and is racing to take the free kick. Not to give the referee no chance of speaking to assistants, rather because his team are 1 goal down late in the game. It was absolutely disallowed in the build up not after the goal, my guess is the referee was a bit befuddled and gave a rather non-confident blow on the whistle that isn't clear on the video
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You may be right. We'll probably never know for sure
 
If the keeper is so switched on and knows the goal is ruled out immediately then why does he head to the left hand side of his area and look to release the ball back to the centre circle with his hands before changing his course towards the location of the IDFK restart?
 
Will_A said:
If the keeper is so switched on and knows the goal is ruled out immediately then why does he head to the left hand side of his area and look to release the ball back to the centre circle with his hands before changing his course towards the location of the IDFK restart?
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Exactly. Which supports the idea of a late whistle and signal, and him suddenly realising he has to rush the FK before the ref realises the mistake and/or because his team is behind and it's late in the game.

Honestly @RustyRef I do understand what you're saying about how a L3 ref "should" be acting. But I disagree with your interpretation of his body language: if he disallowed the goal earlier for a seemingly routine offside, why has he followed play past the point of the FK and then stood there for a good few seconds? Knowing the yellow team are behind, he should be giving the offside and getting on his bike expecting a long ball forward, but the only sprint he does is the other way. At the 5s mark of the video he's on the right edge of the centre circle, next time we see him he's sprinted to the edge of the left D - 50ish yards in 10 seconds, past the FK spot, for a routine offside when you know the ball will be going quickly to the other end of the pitch? And all so you can limply signal an offside IFK?

And even putting that aside, the assumption on how he should respond doesn't override what we're actually seeing and hearing - a clear late whistle and all involved players and the ref acting like the ball is still in play until it goes into the goal.
 
RustyRef said:
Why would a referee without VAR "delay the whistle" until the goal is scored?. I'm convinced he blew it at around 11 seconds, if you look at him after the goal is scored his hands go nowhere near his mouth to actually blow the whistle (and no English referee at that level keeps the whistle in his mouth).

He has seen the flag and blown, then probably immediately thought what the **** have I just done. Been there, have the t-shirt.
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What level is this as I’ve done AR a fair bit in Northern leauge and instruction is always delay unless it changes as you go up would assume it wasn’t a whistle
 
Southerner In The North said:
What level is this as I’ve done AR a fair bit in Northern leauge and instruction is always delay unless it changes as you go up would assume it wasn’t a whistle
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Why, at any level of football without VAR, would you delay the whistle until after a goal has been scored? What possible benefit would it bring? All it is going to do is give you a load of grief.
 
Southerner In The North said:
What level is this as I’ve done AR a fair bit in Northern leauge and instruction is always delay unless it changes as you go up would assume it wasn’t a whistle
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Northern League as a level 7?
The Northern League is step 3/4 so you would need to be a level 4 to assist on the northern league divisions.
 
The Northern League is Step 5/6. You’re thinking of the Northern Premier League, which is Step 3/4
 
RustyRef said:
Why, at any level of football without VAR, would you delay the whistle until after a goal has been scored? What possible benefit would it bring? All it is going to do is give you a load of grief.
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I've already answered literally this exact question. Ignoring my answer and then posting the question again two weeks later doesn't magically invalidate the answer:
GraemeS said:
You can't assume rational thought here, or the goal would have been disallowed!

He's hesitated because his instincts tell him something is wrong, then he's whistled to follow the flag. The GK has rushed the FK to add time pressure and he's just gone with it rather than making a key decision against his AR.
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GraemeS said:
I've already answered literally this exact question. Ignoring my answer and then posting the question again two weeks later doesn't magically invalidate the answer:
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Missed it, believe it or not I do have a full time job and can't always read every post.

I've observed and watched hundreds of games, not once I have I ever same a referee delay the whistle for an offence until after a goal has been scored. And if he was going to do it because he had concerns about the goal why on earth would he allow the free kick to be taken before having a chance to go and speak to the AR? I just don't buy the time argument, if you had gone to the almost unprecedented length of allowing the goal to be scored you would be on the whistle to stop the restart until you were happy.
 
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