The Ref Stop

What Constitutes A "Foul Throw?"

Padfoot said:
So you allow a throw where the hands and arms came from behind and over the head but the ball was released at about waist height?
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I am genuinely not sure whether you should or shouldn't.

What does "delivered" mean in this context? Does it mean that at the moment that he ball is thrown, the ball is both behind and above the head and if so does it mean that the whole of the ball should be behind the whole of the head or just a part of of it?

Or does it mean that on its journey to being thrown the ball must have started behind the head and travel over it and therefore the point of release is irrelevant and yes, you could allow the waist high throw?

I think that the interpretation that most refs use is that the ball must have started behind the head and must be released whilst it is still above head level but I don't see how the law as currently written categorically supports that.
 
The Ref Stop
Padfoot said:
So you allow a throw where the hands and arms came from behind and over the head but the ball was released at about waist height?
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Never had one that bad. Anyway, answer the question - show me in the LOTG where it says that should be penalised. :)
 
Padfoot said:
Didn't say it should be penalised...just asked whether you'd allow it?
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To be honest, if it was "waist height" as you describe, then the laws of physics would dictate to me that it wasn't actually a throw - more of a "drop" in which case I'd probably order it retaken since I couldn't really penalise a team for something which, for the time being anyway, seems to be outside the remit of Law 15. ;)
Speaking glibly, I'd suggest that any adult who took a throw in in this manner this was probably taking the piss..... :cool:
 
I don't want this thread to descend into flippancy and sarcasm if at all possible either please chaps.
I've asked what I think is a very sincere question and have raised what I believe to be one or two genuine points. This issue is something that's puzzled me since day one and, judging by some of the responses here, I'm not alone. :)
 
McTavish said:
What does "delivered" mean in this context? Does it mean that at the moment that he ball is thrown, the ball is both behind and above the head and if so does it mean that the whole of the ball should be behind the whole of the head or just a part of of it?

Or does it mean that on its journey to being thrown the ball must have started behind the head and travel over it and therefore the point of release is irrelevant and yes, you could allow the waist high throw?

I think that the interpretation that most refs use is that the ball must have started behind the head and must be released whilst it is still above head level but I don't see how the law as currently written categorically supports that.
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Exactly my point mate - thank you. :)
For me, the words "delivered from" mean where the ball originates from at the start of the throw-in technique. It has nothing to do with the point of release. :hmmm:
 
Kes said:
To be honest, if it was "waist height" as you describe, then the laws of physics would dictate to me that it wasn't actually a throw - more of a "drop"
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I would describe these as throws...and some start behind the head. If done with a football would you penalise and if so why (assuming they had kept both feet on the ground)?
 
McTavish said:
I would describe these as throws...and some start behind the head. If done with a football would you penalise and if so why (assuming they had kept both feet on the ground)?
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Those particular ones I would. If only because the individuals in question aren't actually facing the field of play - they're leaning downwards. ;) Also, see # 25.... :cool:
 
Interesting "debate", even the pros get it wrong from time to time! :confused:

Here's the exert from the good book...

A throw-in is a method of restarting play.
A throw-in is awarded to the opponents of the player who last touched the ball when the whole of the ball crosses the touch line, either on the ground or in the air.
A goal cannot be scored directly from a throw-in.

Procedure - At the moment of delivering the ball, the thrower:
• faces the field of play
• has part of each foot either on the touch line or on the ground outside the touch line
• holds the ball with both hands
• delivers the ball from behind and over his head
• delivers the ball from the point where it left the field of play
All opponents must stand no less than 2 m (2 yds) from the point at which the throw-in is taken.
The ball is in play when it enters the field of play.
After delivering the ball, the thrower must not touch the ball again until it has touched another player.

Referees are reminded that opponents may be no closer than 2 m from the point at which the throw-in is taken. Where necessary, the referee must warn any player within this distance before the throw-in is taken and caution the player if he subsequently fails to retreat to the correct distance. Play is restarted with a throw-in. If a player, while correctly taking a throw-in, intentionally throws the ball at an opponent in order to play the ball again but neither in a careless nor a reckless manner nor using excessive force, the referee must allow play to continue.
If the ball enters the opponents’ goal directly from a throw-in, the referee must award a goal kick. If the ball enters the thrower’s own goal directly from a throw-in, the referee must award a corner kick. If the ball touches the ground before entering the field of play, the throw-in is retaken by the same team from the same position provided that it was taken in line with the correct procedure. If the throw-in is not taken in line with the correct procedure, it is retaken by the opposing team.

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This bit is interesting for me "If a player, while correctly taking a throw-in, intentionally throws the ball at an opponent in order to play the ball again, but neither in a careless nor a reckless manner nor using excessive force, the referee must allow play to continue." Surely a grey area of interpretation?

There's a kid in my son's U13s team, his throws would be the prime definition of "ugly". More often than not his release action gives you the impression his arms are interconnected with his waist. As he brings the ball over his head, he leans significantly forward, sometimes at an angle of almost 90 degrees and staring at the ground before releasing. Regularly brings a shout of "foul throw" from opposition players/coaches, looks wrong, but according to the laws isn't because there's no mention of a maximum angle the body can lean forward before release and even though he's staring at the floor, he's still technically facing the field of play! :confused:
 
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Like I said earlier Moosey, the whole issue of the "foul throw" just seems to be something that players and worse still, referees seem to feel they can make up as they go along. I say if it ain't in the Laws, you can't call it. :cool:
 
Padfoot said:
So you allow a throw where the hands and arms came from behind and over the head but the ball was released at about waist height?
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Where in law does it say he can't?
I NEVER give foul throws unless a foot infraction occurs or the ball didn't start from behind the players head.
Kes is spot on. Most refs penalise any throw that looks ugly.
As long as it is delivered from behind and comes over the head and is actually a throw (not a drop) I am happy
 
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deusex said:

This is NOT a foul throw for me


this is
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In my mind, a goalkeeper shouldn't be allowed to take a throw-in if he's wearing gloves. Indeed, any player wearing gloves. Some gloves have grip which gives undue purchase on the ball.
I'd also ban the use of towels on the sideline.
I'm also a pedant.
 
Kes said:
Exactly my point mate - thank you. :)
For me, the words "delivered from" mean where the ball originates from at the start of the throw-in technique. It has nothing to do with the point of release. :hmmm:
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"For me" you put in there! "Delivered" to me DOES mean released. So if action starts behind the head and ball released above about "face height" , if that makes sense, then fine with me.

If you're going to be pedantic about the action, but allow, as we all (most) do, the throws to be taken within a "reasonable distance" of where the ball left the fop, then you are going to quickly lose control.
 
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PinnerPaul said:
If you're going to be pedantic about the action, but allow, as we all (most) do, the throws to be taken within a "reasonable distance" of where the ball left the fop, then you are going to quickly lose control.
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Totally agree with that. :)
 
I had one throw in which left me unsure. Player ducked under crush barrier surrounding pitch and took quick throw in from behind the barrier which would have been about 7 feet from the pitch. Everything else fine about the throw, delivered level with where ball left FOP. Opposition claimed foul throw which I did not give as totally unsure at the point whether ok or not. Got home and checked law and decided I had got it wrong as not delivered from where ball went out of play, as out of play would be just over touchline. Having read post about ball bouncing after throw before entering FOP I am again unsure. Does throw have to be taken right by touchline or can it be taken from further back.
 
happy whistler said:
I had one throw in which left me unsure. Player ducked under crush barrier surrounding pitch and took quick throw in from behind the barrier which would have been about 7 feet from the pitch. Everything else fine about the throw, delivered level with where ball left FOP. Opposition claimed foul throw which I did not give as totally unsure at the point whether ok or not. Got home and checked law and decided I had got it wrong as not delivered from where ball went out of play, as out of play would be just over touchline. Having read post about ball bouncing after throw before entering FOP I am again unsure. Does throw have to be taken right by touchline or can it be taken from further back.
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The ball must come into the FOP from the point where it left, so as long as he throws it back in so that it enters the FOP at the same point that it left then it does not matter how far back he stands. All the Law says is that both feet must be touching the ground, on or behind the line. It does not say how far behind.
However, what almost always happens is that he throws it along the touchline so it re-enters the FOP a long way from where it went out. This is therefore a foul throw, just as if he takes the throw down the line from where it went out of play.
Similarly, if a player stands next to the touchline where the ball went out of play but throws the ball down the line so that it re-enters a long way from where it should come in would also be a foul throw, but much harder to sell unless you were sure where it actually came into play.
 
happy whistler said:
Having read post about ball bouncing after throw before entering FOP I am again unsure. Does throw have to be taken right by touchline or can it be taken from further back.
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I think you may have misunderstood that one mate. (unless I myself missed it?) The guy was talking about the ball being thrown into the the FOP at such a downward angle that it was more of a bounce than a throw. I think. :hmmm:
 
I won't allow a throw-in to be taken from behind a barrier - even if it enters the FOP exactly where it left it

For me - the ball being delivered over the barrier means it won't have come directly onto the FOP

As with throws down the line that don't make it onto the FOP before bouncing - it's just a re-take, same direction
 
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