VAR Part 456

[RustyRef]

Mark Halsey (5 live drivetiime) spoke about the 'spirit of VAR' and how many thought it was solely intended to stop those howlers which have a huge impact on the game. The Sterling review purportedly (by the Guardian) had a sapping effect on the stadium atmosphere which far outweighed the gains conveyed from a decision based on something indeterminable. It's this level of forensics which brings the C&O thing back to the fore, because the two are so far in opposition to one another that the latter is conspicuous

Yes, but equally the media, managers, supporters, in the past have gone ballistic when a player has been penalised for offside when only just off, or conversely has scored despite being just millimetres offside. It is arguably those reactions that have contributed to VAR, in that everyone wanted perfection from match officials, so people can't complain now when VAR is used even though the margins are miniscule.

And, offside aside, I do think PGMOL have gone in much less heavy handed and are applying the clear and obvious tag much more than in Europe. There was a penalty review at the weekend that would have 100% have been given as handball in Europe, and a red card challenge that would also certainly have been changed outside of the PL.

 

[zarathustra]

Mark Halsey (5 live drivetiime) spoke about the 'spirit of VAR' and how many thought it was solely intended to stop those howlers which have a huge impact on the game. The Sterling review purportedly (by the Guardian) had a sapping effect on the stadium atmosphere which far outweighed the gains conveyed from a decision based on something indeterminable. It's this level of forensics which brings the C&O thing back to the fore, because the two are so far in opposition to one another that the latter is conspicuous

My bold.

That may have been what club's etc wanted, but they were never just going to get that.

The method chosen by IFAB, presumably in consultation with various stake holder i.e. national FAs and major leagues like the premier League doesn't allow for that.

If it was like Rugby, where the ref asks for a specific decision i.e. "is there a reason why I can't award a goal" it would worked better, but they decided to have VAR review things automatically and only informing the ref after the fact.

 

[Big Cat]

Yes, but equally the media, managers, supporters, in the past have gone ballistic when a player has been penalised for offside when only just off, or conversely has scored despite being just millimetres offside. It is arguably those reactions that have contributed to VAR, in that everyone wanted perfection from match officials, so people can't complain now when VAR is used even though the margins are miniscule.

And, offside aside, I do think PGMOL have gone in much less heavy handed and are applying the clear and obvious tag much more than in Europe. There was a penalty review at the weekend that would have 100% have been given as handball in Europe, and a red card challenge that would also certainly have been changed outside of the PL.

In my opinion (without supporting evidence) and in my suspicion of FIFA (in general), I'd hazard a guess that VAR was born out commercial motivations to seriously tap into the American audience
I think everyone was calling for increased use of technology, but few of us anticipated what's happened to the game in quite a short space of time

 

[socal lurker]

In my opinion (without supporting evidence) and in my suspicion of FIFA (in general), I'd hazard a guess that VAR was born out commercial motivations to seriously tap into the American audience

Really? IMHO that’s a huge stretch into cynicism. I don’t think why there was clamor for VAR is hard to explain at all—badly missed calls that changed games that led to wanting a way to fix gross errors. Occam’s razor here—we don’t need to get a conspiracy theory to explain this.

 

[Big Cat]

Really? IMHO that’s a huge stretch into cynicism. I don’t think why there was clamor for VAR is hard to explain at all—badly missed calls that changed games that led to wanting a way to fix gross errors. Occam’s razor here—we don’t need to get a conspiracy theory to explain this.

Admittedly, I'm ultra cynical where FIFA are concerned
I don't get why IFAB stoically held the brakes on technology for so long, only to burn all the rubber off the tires with a spectacular handbrake-turn. Whilst I respect your Occam's razor thinking, it's the rate of philosophy change which has sent me down a speculative path

 

[The Referee]

How many times does it have to be said, clear and obvious does not apply to offsides. You are onside or offside, unless it is bang on level which hardly ever happens.

Correct, you are either onside or offside but sometimes it's impossible to tell; there'll always be a small error depending on camera angles, frame rates, other players blocking cameras, ect... The Sterling case shows that sometimes it's too close to call. In cricket, they stick with the on-field umpire's decision when it's too close to call, even with factual decisions. Perhaps, football should as well.

 

[socal lurker]

Correct, you are either onside or offside but sometimes it's impossible to tell; there'll always be a small error depending on camera angles, frame rates, other players blocking cameras, ect... The Sterling case shows that sometimes it's too close to call. In cricket, they stick with the on-field umpire's decision when it's too close to call, even with factual decisions. Perhaps, football should as well.

Maybe they should say something in Law 5 that when video review is used, the on field "decision does not change unless it is a ‘clear and obvious error’. " Oh. Wait. That is exactly what it does say. The question is not whether only clear OS errors should be reversed. That is what the LOTG says. The real question is what that means--when is is it clear? For objective decisions like OSP (not all OS, but OSP) or ball out of play, the answer being used is that if the technology can show it, then it is clear. Which makes sense to a degree, as that is what the home viewer can see.

But what is missing (I think) is what the real margin of error is. And that real margin of error depends on the specific technology being used. I don't believe all professional leagues using VARs have all of the fancy bells and whistles that FIFA used in the WCs to draw the OS lines with computer analysis to drop a body part that is not on the ground. So I *suspect* that the MOE in many domestic leagues is higher than that in the WCs. (I've seen a lot of amateur speculation on the MOE, but never anything based on clear data.)

I will note that I have seen reviews by PRO (the US professional referee association) that have concluded that the VAR video was not sufficiently conclusive to overrule an AR OSP decision on the field. (I don;t believe they have the full blown FIFA system.)

 

[cwyeary]

Even with an inline camera angle, there's still a MoE that isn't really discussed. If two pro athletes are running in opposite directions (a defender and attacker) at say 8 m/s, that means in one frame of the standard TV camera (30 fps), they will separate by about half a meter.

Now I accept the argument that we just need to pick the best frame we have and then make a decision, but the truth is that the idea we can determine offside to the nearest millimeter is factually wrong. But I don't know how to create a margin of error like cricket has since the two players can both be stationary or they can both be sprinting in opposite directions or anything in between. It's not a constant error range.

 

[Peter Grove]

In my opinion (without supporting evidence) and in my suspicion of FIFA (in general), I'd hazard a guess that VAR was born out commercial motivations to seriously tap into the American audience
I think everyone was calling for increased use of technology, but few of us anticipated what's happened to the game in quite a short space of time

I've never seen anything to suggest that the IFAB cares anything at all about the 'American audience' and if you consider it, why would they? Without wanting to sound too dismissive of the MLS, the US is hardly the most important and influential hotbed of world football, now is it?

 

[Big Cat]

I've never seen anything to suggest that the IFAB cares anything at all about the 'American audience' and if you consider it, why would they? Without wanting to sound too dismissive of the MLS, the US is hardly the most important and influential hotbed of world football, now is it?

I just see huge commercial potential for 'soccer' and audiences who would welcome VAR
In my view, one would be crazy not to hold deep mistrust of anything FIFA promote, including their membership of IFAB and their influence on the Laws. As I say, just my personal view; not claiming anything factual

 

[Big Cat]

Even with an inline camera angle, there's still a MoE that isn't really discussed. If two pro athletes are running in opposite directions (a defender and attacker) at say 8 m/s, that means in one frame of the standard TV camera (30 fps), they will separate by about half a meter.

Now I accept the argument that we just need to pick the best frame we have and then make a decision, but the truth is that the idea we can determine offside to the nearest millimeter is factually wrong. But I don't know how to create a margin of error like cricket has since the two players can both be stationary or they can both be sprinting in opposite directions or anything in between. It's not a constant error range.

Fully agree. There is a 'MoE' (as you coin it) for GLT, so hopefully the techies will do something similar for offsides, albeit the MoE should be much greater for the latter as it's a less precise science

 

[socal lurker]

Even with an inline camera angle, there's still a MoE that isn't really discussed. If two pro athletes are running in opposite directions (a defender and attacker) at say 8 m/s, that means in one frame of the standard TV camera (30 fps), they will separate by about half a meter.

Now I accept the argument that we just need to pick the best frame we have and then make a decision, but the truth is that the idea we can determine offside to the nearest millimeter is factually wrong. But I don't know how to create a margin of error like cricket has since the two players can both be stationary or they can both be sprinting in opposite directions or anything in between. It's not a constant error range.

Agree that it is not constant, but it is very rare that the key players for OSP are sprinting in opposite directions at the moment the ball is played, so the 1/2 meter is a bit of a red herring. If I were going to try to draw a practical model for MOE for OSP, I would focus not on absolutes but on looking at the frame before and after the "right" frame, and looking at the changes in position. (It would be interesting to see how many OS calls that have been reversed would have not been reversed if the frame before or after the chosen was used instead. One possible standard for review would be to only reverse if the magic frame and the one before and after combined, viewed together, support the reversal.)

 

[The Referee]

. But I don't know how to create a margin of error like cricket has since the two players can both be stationary or they can both be sprinting in opposite directions or anything in between. It's not a constant error range.

How about pick the best frame to check onside/offside; then, check the preceding frame and the succeeding frame to see if it shows the same decision (onside/offside). If there is any difference in onside/offside between the three frames, we are in the margin of error so stick with the on-field decision.

This only needs to be done with close calls and VARs might need to get quicker at drawing lines.

 

[Peter Grove]

I just see huge commercial potential for 'soccer' and audiences who would welcome VAR
In my view, one would be crazy not to hold deep mistrust of anything FIFA promote, including their membership of IFAB and their influence on the Laws. As I say, just my personal view; not claiming anything factual

There is certainly potential for football (soccer) to become more popular in the US. There's also the potential that the current professional league there could fizzle and fail as all the previous ones have. Until or unless it actually does become massive and highly lucrative (if it ever does) I doubt FIFA will pay it much mind.

Also, don't forget that even though you may be right not to trust them, FIFA isn't in charge of any changes that are made in the Laws as they don't have a voting majority. Unless at least one of the 'home nations' votes with them, they can't introduce anything.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Soooooooo back to my original question - we haven't yet seen an official go to a monitor in the PL?

 

[zarathustra]

Not that I'm aware of, but have there been any decisions with VAR where an OFR would be needed?

It's been mostly run of the mill stuff so far.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Not that I'm aware of, but have there been any decisions with VAR where an OFR would be needed?

It's been mostly run of the mill stuff so far.

Pay attention at the back!

As I said above there was a possible red card foul that was reviewed - decision no red card - but no one has been able to tell me if that was reviewed by on field ref or not .I suspect not, which leads me to believe what Anthony Taylor said in the summer (See my OP!)

 

[JamesL]

Pay attention at the back!

As I said above there was a possible red card foul that was reviewed - decision no red card - but no one has been able to tell me if that was reviewed by on field ref or not .I suspect not, which leads me to believe what Anthony Taylor said in the summer (See my OP!)

Was it checked or reviewed? There is a difference. Had the check concluded a missed incident then R may well have reviewed it. Although, I don't doubt what you have said and thay many decisions will be checked and corrected without OFR

 

[PinnerPaul]

Was it checked or reviewed? There is a difference. Had the check concluded a missed incident then R may well have reviewed it. Although, I don't doubt what you have said and thay many decisions will be checked and corrected without OFR

 

[PinnerPaul]

Thanks James. Not particularly pro VAR, but if used think it more practical for the VAR to make the calls, albeit under the guise of the match referee 'making' the decision after 'advice' from the VAR.