Valencia v Real Madrid

[socal lurker]

I’m still an outlier & believe it is negligible force. More a push than a strike.

Anyone for caution GK for AA & second caution GK for simulation = Red.

BTW GK wasn't cautioned.

I think if you gave the keeper a double caution on that in a professional game it would be the last professional game you reffed.

You can make a case for cautioning the instigation—though there is zero chance it would be cautioned if not for the retaliation.

And even aside from the double caution implausibility, can you find a single example of a professional game in which a victim of VC has been cautioned for exaggerating the VC? We’ve debated on here whether it is technically permissible, but it’s pretty clear that it would be a “gotcha” call in how the game is played today.

 

[DJIC]

Have you looked at the definition of negligible (both dictionary/LOTG) before making this statement?

Definitions
Negligible - so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.

Violent conduct - excessive force or brutality

This ‘strike/push’, which was it closer to? brutality or negligible?

Simulation -
There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:

• attempts to deceive the referee e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation).

So why not caution for AA & simulation?

I’m not convinced the referee wouldn’t be backed, the one thing the ex-players hate is players trying to get fellow pro’s sent off, so why shouldnt the referee be applauded? The GK had no reason to collapse to the ground with this negligible contact to the back of his neck.

I’ll get my coat…

 

[socal lurker]

Again, have you ever seen a caution for simulation when a player is a victim of VC in a professional game? Indeed, we can take it a step down, have you ever seen a caution for simulation when a foul is called in a professional game? You can make an argument that it should be something that is done (I’d even support you on that), but it is absolutely, positively not something expected. It it was supported by the powers that be at that level, we would see them given.

 

[JamesL]

Definitions
Negligible - so small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.

Violent conduct - excessive force or brutality

This ‘strike/push’, which was it closer to? brutality or negligible?

Simulation -
There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:

• attempts to deceive the referee e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation).

So why not caution for AA & simulation?

I’m not convinced the referee wouldn’t be backed, the one thing the ex-players hate is players trying to get fellow pro’s sent off, so why shouldnt the referee be applauded? The GK had no reason to collapse to the ground with this negligible contact to the back of his neck.

I’ll get my coat…

Negligible = minimal, insignificant.

When considering the action of the offender this can hardly be considered insignificant...

It's very clearly more than negligible force (which btw was brought in to stop players who hardly touch each other e.g. head to head squaring up being sent off) and the laws require a player whom strikes his opponent in the face to be sent off for violent conduct. Whilst not meeting the excessive/brutal standard it leads with "in addition" because the laws also want these situations dealing with as VC

 

[RefereeX]

My question is, if it's 'just a reaction' from Vini Jr, then why does he reach up towards the GKs head? A natural push from Vini Jr would have been chest level, not head level, he's deliberately raised the hands up, and that's what makes it more of a RC offence for me.

Also, not sure I agree that the GK should be cautioned. I don't love his actions, but equally, as someone pointed out above, if Vini doesn't react then the GK would never be cautioned for it. With that said, it could be a handy caution for game management if you're dismissing vini

 

[ARF]

Also, not sure I agree that the GK should be cautioned. I don't love his actions, but equally, as someone pointed out above, if Vini doesn't react then the GK would never be cautioned for it. With that said, it could be a handy caution for game management if you're dismissing vini

Goalkeeper causes it in the first place by provoking him while he's down on his knees - that's what the caution should be for.

 

[RefereeX]

Goalkeeper causes it in the first place by provoking him while he's down on his knees - that's what the caution should be for.

But you're not going to tell me that you'd caution a keeper for that if Vini Jr just gets up and runs off?

Should the sanction for the keeper change purely based on the reaction?

 

[ARF]

But you're not going to tell me that you'd caution a keeper for that if Vini Jr just gets up and runs off?

Correct, I wouldn't

Should the sanction for the keeper change purely based on the reaction?

IMO yes, if it instigates something more happening. Otherwise players will think they have licence to constantly try provoking opponents into reacting.

 

[RefereeX]

Correct, I wouldn't


IMO yes, if it instigates something more happening. Otherwise players will think they have licence to constantly try provoking opponents into reacting.

I think we're on the same page, because I said it would be a handy caution for game management if dismissing Vini Jr. I just think he doesn't make any action himself that warrants a caution.

 

[Johnson]

I’m still an outlier & believe it is negligible force. More a push than a strike.

Anyone for caution GK for AA & second caution GK for simulation = Red.

BTW GK wasn't cautioned.

For anyone (I realise this doesn’t include you, DJIC), arguing for a yellow card for simulation and a red card for VC, I believe this is incorrect in law. There can’t be an attempt to deceive the referee into giving an incorrect disciplinary sanction as the correct sanction is already the strongest sanction.

 

[ARF]

For anyone (I realise this doesn’t include you, DJIC), arguing for a yellow card for simulation and a red card for VC, I believe this is incorrect in law. There can’t be an attempt to deceive the referee into giving an incorrect disciplinary sanction as the correct sanction is already the strongest sanction.

If that was what it said in the LotG, you'd be correct. But it doesn't say that.

"attempts to deceive the referee, e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)"

I think we're all agreed that Vinicius has committed a foul, so clearly that part can't apply. However I don't think it would be incorrect in law to caution the GK under the "feigning injury" part.

 

[Johnson]

If that was what it said in the LotG, you'd be correct. But it doesn't say that.

"attempts to deceive the referee, e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)"

I think we're all agreed that Vinicius has committed a foul, so clearly that part can't apply. However I don't think it would be incorrect in law to caution the GK under the "feigning injury" part.

The whole sentence is attempts to deceive by feigning injury, and again, deceive means “Act to mislead/trick the referee into giving an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction which benefits the deceiver and/or their team”.

 

[ARF]

The whole sentence is attempts to deceive by feigning injury, and again, deceive means “Act to mislead/trick the referee into giving an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction which benefits the deceiver and/or their team”.

And if the goalkeeper doesn't feign injury, there is every possibility that the incident doesn't get recommended for review by the VAR. So yes, his feigning injury has absolutely deceived the referee.

 

[Johnson]

And if the goalkeeper doesn't feign injury, there is every possibility that the incident doesn't get recommended for review by the VAR. So yes, his feigning injury has absolutely deceived the referee.

If his actions resulted in the decision being correctly reviewed, then this is not simulation. If you don’t think this is VC though, then obviously you can caution for simulation.

 

[JamesL]

The whole sentence is attempts to deceive by feigning injury, and again, deceive means “Act to mislead/trick the referee into giving an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction which benefits the deceiver and/or their team”.

Honestly, this makes no sense.

The referee gives a red card for violent conduct. But then cautions the opposition to player for trying to mislead/trick him into an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction... But still sends the player off?

Make it make sense...

 

[RustyRef]

Honestly, this makes no sense.

The referee gives a red card for violent conduct. But then cautions the opposition to player for trying to mislead/trick him into an incorrect decision/disciplinary sanction... But still sends the player off?

Make it make sense...

Agree, this has come up in many topics over the years. Penalising someone, whether it be for giving a penalty away, SFP, VC, etc, whilst at the same time cautioning the opposing player involved in the incident for simulation is never going to end well. No referee with any amount of common sense would ever do this as they'd just be digging a huge hole for themselves.

 

[bester]

Could justify two yellows for this. Going to be an extremely rare circumstance

 

[Tingting]

Valencia's GK did start the heat. Rann his hand his hand over Vini. Vini takes his head off. Red card. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the pat. It seemed more passive that violent. Vini just straight overeacted and slapped the keeper's face. OBVI violent conduct. Bro literally slapped the guy in the face. One look at VAR and Vini is sent off. No doubt red.

 

[one]

Agree, this has come up in many topics over the years. Penalising someone, whether it be for giving a penalty away, SFP, VC, etc, whilst at the same time cautioning the opposing player involved in the incident for simulation is never going to end well. No referee with any amount of common sense would ever do this as they'd just be digging a huge hole for themselves.

It only doesn't make sense when you give the highest punishment. But say if Vini Jr was just cautioned, then you can still caution the keeper for simulation, be correct in law, and make sense of it. The reason simulation would be the keeper tried to deceive the referee to send the Vini Jr off. Football doesn't expect this though which is why we don't see any referee doing it.
Hope this all makes sense.