RefSix

USA v Thailand

#21
So what's the point of the OFR? The OFR process is pathetic
The point is that if the decision is a subjective one, only the referee can make the decision. The VAR is not authorised to take decisions, only to offer information. There was a good example in the Brazil vs Australia match for the Australians' third goal. Sam Kerr was in an offside position when the ball was played by a team mate - but did she then interfere with an opponent? Only the referee is empowered to make that judgement, so an OFR has to take place.

Thankfully, so is the FA
I'm not sure what you're implying here. The EPL will be using the same VAR protocol as everyone else in the world and on-field reviews, which are an integral part of the process, will take place as and when required.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#24
The point is that if the decision is a subjective one, only the referee can make the decision. The VAR is not authorised to take decisions, only to offer information. There was a good example in the Brazil vs Australia match for the Australians' third goal. Sam Kerr was in an offside position when the ball was played by a team mate - but did she then interfere with an opponent? Only the referee is empowered to make that judgement, so an OFR has to take place.


I'm not sure what you're implying here. The EPL will be using the same VAR protocol as everyone else in the world and on-field reviews, which are an integral part of the process, will take place as and when required.
I don't recall seeing an OFR during The FA's trialling. When we met with Anthony Taylor, he seemed very aware of the downside of OFR. I'm hoping its only used in the EPL on an infrequent basis. I'm instigating that there's no need to hold on to the notion of the R needing to be the chief arbiter, on the basis that an elite VAR is more likely to get the call right than the slightly more elite R
 
#25
I'm instigating that there's no need to hold on to the notion of the R needing to be the chief arbiter, on the basis that an elite VAR is more likely to get the call right than the slightly more elite R
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "instigating" in this context but the Laws of the Game that we all must follow, say that the referee is not just the chief, but the sole arbiter. I feel you're still not quite up to speed on how the VAR Protocol works. The VAR, no matter how elite they might be, will not be getting any calls right because they won't be making any, assuming that by "call" you mean "decision."

Here's how the LotG, in the "VAR Protocol" section, express this:
The VAR describes to the referee what can be seen on the TV replay(s) but not the decision to be taken, and the referee then:
- makes a final decision based on the referee’s own perception and the information from the VAR, and, where appropriate, input from other match officials – VAR-only review
- or
-
goes to the referee review area to view replay footage – ‘on-field review’ (OFR) – before making a final decision. The other match officials will not review the footage unless, in exceptional circumstances, asked to do so by the referee
Remember, this is what the Laws of the Game say and neither the FA nor any other competition organiser can start doing things that are not in the laws.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#26
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "instigating" in this context but the Laws of the Game that we all must follow, say that the referee is not just the chief, but the sole arbiter. I feel you're still not quite up to speed on how the VAR Protocol works. The VAR, no matter how elite they might be, will not be getting any calls right because they won't be making any, assuming that by "call" you mean "decision."

Here's how the LotG, in the "VAR Protocol" section, express this:


Remember, this is what the Laws of the Game say and neither the FA nor any other competition organiser can start doing things that are not in the laws.
And this is the same for any other assistant referee. They describe what they have seen and the referee makes a decision based on the info that is given to them. In the case of video assistant the main difference is that they have reviewed live TV and then a replay and the referee then has the benefit of viewing the same footage
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#27
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "instigating" in this context but the Laws of the Game that we all must follow, say that the referee is not just the chief, but the sole arbiter. I feel you're still not quite up to speed on how the VAR Protocol works. The VAR, no matter how elite they might be, will not be getting any calls right because they won't be making any, assuming that by "call" you mean "decision."

Here's how the LotG, in the "VAR Protocol" section, express this:


Remember, this is what the Laws of the Game say and neither the FA nor any other competition organiser can start doing things that are not in the laws.
Whilst I haven't poured over the 64 page VAR protocol, I have a rough understanding of it
You're misunderstanding me as I'm not talking about the existing protocol. I'm merely discussing how the world could look instead
As for OFR, the simple fact is that referees in the UK have avoided using it (hereto), despite it being available to them as per the protocol. Probably because the concept is pants
Whilst the Law and VAR protocol is set in stone, football has always deviated from what's in the book; in many cases tearing pages out at will
The PGMOL meet with the clubs and players associations before the start of each season. The PGMOL adapt how they referee games in this country according to the feedback they get, hence there is a difference between the AOL from one country to another. If PGMOL must have the OFR facility available otherwise this would be a breach of the protocol, but they can tweak the frequency with which they use it. Lets hope they continue doing so
 
#31
It look rubbish, refs have not trained for 20 years to look at a TV, refs have not practiced for 20 years using their judgement while watching a TV in front of 80,000 fans. If an AR can call something the ref has not seen, why can't VAR(ce)?
The AR can't. ARs don't "call" anything. They raise the flag to recommend that the R call something.

Of course, we could build a system where the VAR makes a recommendation to the R to reverse the call, and the R would accept or reject that recommendation without an OFR--just the same as he accepts or rejects a flag. But there is something very different viscerally from accepting an AR flag on something the R didn't see, and accepting a VAR recommendation that the R was wrong. On the objective calls, that isn't a problem, but on the subjective calls, it would be a significant departure from the mindset the game has had for generations. Doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong or shouldn't happen, but its a much bigger step than VAR as it exists today. But it is also a bigger step on the slippery slope of opening up more to review with VR.

I still say throw the whole thing out--while it has certainly corrected somethings, I remain utterly unconvinced that the net effect has been to make the game better.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#32
The AR can't. ARs don't "call" anything. They raise the flag to recommend that the R call something.

Of course, we could build a system where the VAR makes a recommendation to the R to reverse the call, and the R would accept or reject that recommendation without an OFR--just the same as he accepts or rejects a flag. But there is something very different viscerally from accepting an AR flag on something the R didn't see, and accepting a VAR recommendation that the R was wrong. On the objective calls, that isn't a problem, but on the subjective calls, it would be a significant departure from the mindset the game has had for generations. Doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong or shouldn't happen, but its a much bigger step than VAR as it exists today. But it is also a bigger step on the slippery slope of opening up more to review with VR.

I still say throw the whole thing out--while it has certainly corrected somethings, I remain utterly unconvinced that the net effect has been to make the game better.
I've used the analogy before, but ****pit resource management dilutes the concept of subordinate co-pilots because the culture of inferiority causes planes to crash. The difference, none of the dissenting passengers are banging on the ****pit door full of expletives with their opinion of every decision made by the pilots during the flight. So the practice of having a sole arbiter and inferior assistants directly stems from necessity in terms of game management because perceived indecision between an equivalent team of officials would cause mayhem. It's a funny old game. From the outside looking in, FIFA and IFAB won't be tackling the major issues of abuse and cheating any time soon :( and VAR is now a big publicity venture, so they won't be backing down on that either
 
#35
That's not the standard. The VAR only recommends a review to the referee if the VAR concludes that there was a clear error in not calling the PK. That means that almost every time the R goes for an OFR on a PK review the PK should be awarded.
Hmmm, not sure how clear I can make it - not a biggie, but to me they were so obvious as to be a clear error
 
#36
It's a palaver, a song and a dance. It makes the referee the centre of attention, which is the last thing a ref should be. The whole painting of a TV in the air and pointing to the spot from 100 yards away. The unnecessary delay, considering the VAR has seen the incident from 10 angles. I could go on...
As I understand it PL are not going to have OFR - or at least they are going to be discouraged. On field ref still technically making the decision but on the advice of the VAR.
 
#37
The point is that if the decision is a subjective one, only the referee can make the decision. The VAR is not authorised to take decisions, only to offer information. There was a good example in the Brazil vs Australia match for the Australians' third goal. Sam Kerr was in an offside position when the ball was played by a team mate - but did she then interfere with an opponent? Only the referee is empowered to make that judgement, so an OFR has to take place.


I'm not sure what you're implying here. The EPL will be using the same VAR protocol as everyone else in the world and on-field reviews, which are an integral part of the process, will take place as and when required.
Not according to Anthony Taylor who said PL referees were not going to go to OFR if at all possible.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#38
Not according to Anthony Taylor who said PL referees were not going to go to OFR if at all possible.
Well that is certainly what happened in this season's trials, more often than not there was no OFR. For example, when Martin Atkinson sent off Victor Lindelöf he didn't go pitch side and rather took Chris Kavanagh's advice and overturned his original decision to a caution.
 
#39
The AR can't. ARs don't "call" anything. They raise the flag to recommend that the R call something.
.
OK I'll rephrase: ARs signal to advise the referee to penalise offences the referee has not seen, and never will see (with no requirement to see them on a screen). Why can't VAR signal to advise the referee to penalise offences the referee has not without the need for the referee to see them on a screen?
 
#40
OK I'll rephrase: ARs signal to advise the referee to penalise offences the referee has not seen, and never will see (with no requirement to see them on a screen). Why can't VAR signal to advise the referee to penalise offences the referee has not without the need for the referee to see them on a screen?
That's what I wrote about in the rest of my post . . .
 
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