A&H

United v Burnley

QuaverRef said:
I'll be honest, I'm struggling here. I really don't see how pushing your head into somebody else's isn't an act of violence.
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Its an act of aggression.
To actually do the Glasgow kiss, is violence

The same as to use/raise your hands to someone is the aggression, what you do with the raised arms then potentially turns into the violence

As prev poster James said, this exact example was rolled out a few years ago as textbook yellow card. I guess you would have had to be at one of those lectures to have taken it in, and thats nobodys fault
 
The Referee Store
As I suspected, even on this forum, this chat/discussion has already taken place...... cant of course speak for anyone who was not present at said instructions but below is an copy/paste for when certainly SFA ( in accordance with UEFA/FIFA "softened" ) their stance on "headbutts"

https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/headbutt-motion-to-headbutt-excessive-vs-aggressive.7089/


For anybody needing help to clarify what was typed by the Judicial panel, the first part of the statement is how the headbutt WAS prev interpreted, whats not typed up is how the headbutt IS TO THIS DAY interpreted, the clip shown were exact as Jon Moss yesterday, and a yellow card for AAAA is the correct punishment.
For those wondering what a red card for a headbutt is, Zidane is probably your most loved example.
I would also ask for anybody still unsure, if the force used in Rashfords clip is NOT negligible, then for everybodys else's benefit, can you please give examples of what you do deem to be negligible?
 
Ciley Myrus said:
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For those wondering what a red card for a headbutt is, Zidane is probably your most loved example.
I would also ask for anybody still unsure, if the force used in Rashfords clip is NOT negligible, then for everybodys else's benefit, can you please give examples of what you do deem to be negligible?
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What Bardsley did afterwards.
 
Are you struggling to either read or make sense of an Associations own protocol? i.e. one which is not the opinion of anybody on here, but, that which is the actual law of the land in refereeing terms?
I suppose SFA simply added in UEFA/FIFA to make it look official and not because its actually how it is.......
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Are you struggling to either read or make sense of an Associations own protocol? i.e. one which is not the opinion of anybody on here, but, that which is the actual law of the land in refereeing terms?
I suppose SFA simply added in UEFA/FIFA to make it look official and not because its actually how it is.......
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As the link you posted to the SFA doesn't work I have no idea what you mean by the "actual law of the land"? Are you saying we do what FIFA suggests rather than what's in the LOTG? (How does that fit in with the deliberate handball thread...?)
 
bloovee said:
As the link you posted to the SFA doesn't work I have no idea what you mean by the "actual law of the land"? Are you saying we do what FIFA suggests rather than what's in the LOTG? (How does that fit in with the deliberate handball thread...?)
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This thread is about Rashford use of head
And am justifying and providing evidence of how and why it should be a yellow card
Not giving an opinion on anything, not speculating, but providing the actual evidence of Judicual Panel guidelines re use of the head (as endorrssed by the games law makers)
Sorry if the link does not work. There is not a lot I can do about that, given I dont create the original documents
 
santa sangria said:
Just watched. RC is correct IMHO. And the YC too. Bardsley's swipe with the legs is consistent with the act of straightening out his leg to get up. He does it in a reckless way to trip Rashford, so YC is a good call. It's clever, but I don't think it is anywhere close to RC. Marcus on the other hand is very silly here. All he has to do is stay down, clutch his leg and the opponent should get a YC. Instead, he puts his head to the opponent's head - and it's not trifling. It has to be red IMHO.

The players obviously know Moss well. I would still like him to assume a position where he is facing all the players.

If I am AR2, I would be in-shot and right there during the handbags. Maybe there is a specific directive to EPL assistants. But I am sprinting down the line towards that corner if my ref is faced with 14 players pushing and shoving, no matter how familiar we are. I am a bit shocked not to see any AR in shot during the sequence. (I can just see AR1 in the fuzzy background comes 3 yards onto the field).
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But Bardsley also put his head to Rashford's?
 
PinnerPaul said:
But Bardsley also put his head to Rashford's?
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Not for me. I think it's all on Marcus. And I disagree about earlier comments about Bardsley's action - yes, he swiped him, but in the act of getting his leg around to get up. Reckless, yes, enough for that, but not VC.

Though, in light of the closest thing we seem to have on the guidance given to top flight refs, the red for Rashford now seems harsh.

Caveat: Marcus only has himself to blame for inviting the RC... however, it is a shame that, when a RC decision like this can have such an affect on a game, individual, team, even a career, we again have a situation where the referee's decision is debatable and other experienced referees cannot agree on the correct decision.
 
santa sangria said:
I happened to read this earlier in the good book:
"In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible."

I know it says hand or arm... and I know e.g. MLS has its own strong guidance for refs on anything to the head... and I don't know what the Prem guidance is... but this is the nearest we have in the LotG. In this section, there doesn't have to be violence - just non-negligible. Just like deliberate doesn't mean deliberate, violent doesn't mean violent in the IFAB small print!

The force wasn't negligible in this case IMHO.

I think this is an easy red in the park or on the telly.

I'm interested if you would give a YC at grassroots?
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There was no strike on the head though. There was no impact. The actual collision force would be almost zero.
It's a yellow for me. It's aggressive and provocative, but there's no violence, no strike, no headbutt.

EDIT: now I've seen a different clip which shows a lot more than what was posted by Shef. I'm changing my viewpoint to a red card and added a new post later.
 
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bloovee said:
Can someone publish the secret guidance on this? I can't see anything in the SFA's current Judicial Protocol.

Seriously, you can't have definitive guidance buried in FAQs and private lectures.
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Agree with you here. But, weren't you using USSF guidance to back up your interpretations in another thread? And how surprising one is a city thread and one is a united thread
 
If I'd had my blue specs on the City thread would have been about the Silva penalty claim....

The USSF thing was about why hands and arms are not used for offside. I think the new FAQ is baloney ("to help the AR") - I don't know where that's come from (and whether the FAQ are definitive or just advisory), and I've got evidence that it was originally because you can't play the ball legally with hand or arm. There was the USSF quote, and this:
"Reason: Football is played with the head, body and feet. If these are nearer the opponents’ goal line, there is a potential advantage. There is no advantage to be gained if only the arms are in advance of the opponent."

http://www.kenaston.org/download/KenAstonRefereeSociety/offside_history-JulianCarosi.pdf

(I can't find my old LOAFs/LOTGs since moving, but I've a feeling that was the official IFAB reason at the time.)


Off thread, but they've closed that thread.
 
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bloovee said:
Can someone publish the secret guidance on this? I can't see anything in the SFA's current Judicial Protocol.

Seriously, you can't have definitive guidance buried in FAQs and private lectures.
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Ok, I do have the clips in question in front of me, however, I dont know how to paste them onto here, what i do have in the coaching notes that come with them, and, the clip in question is exact same as Rashford
If I can find a way to load the clip(s), I will

here though is the directive. One might be able to paint a picture of what happened in the clip from the description


Clip 2 Rangers v Hibernian - Yellow Card. This clip clearly demonstrates the change in coaching position and is a common scenario when two players confront each other in a head-to-head situation. In such circumstances the slight forward motion by one player is likely to occur. However, referees are now expected to assess the level of force and brutality according to the LOTG. Again in this clip the level of aggression is moderate and could not be interpreted as excessive. As such a caution should be issued for adopting a threatening or aggressive attitude (B1e).
 
Am struggling to copy paste the link to the clip, however, granted a pic is not foolproof, here are two just to even further try to explain the incident in question...
And no, its not just two players head to head, there is a clear forward motion by Kris Boyd (blue)
 

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Ciley Myrus said:
Am struggling to copy paste the link to the clip, however, granted a pic is not foolproof, here are two just to even further try to explain the incident in question...
And no, its not just two players head to head, there is a clear forward motion by Kris Boyd (blue)
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bloovee said:
And is there IFAB endorsement of this?
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No, the SFA in conjunction with UEFA just rolled it out to their top flight officials hoping we would all follow it for a laugh

if wherever you are you were not present at similar meeting, or indeed there was not such in your area, there is not a lot i can do about that, I can only speak for the instructions given down to us where I am.
 
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