The Ref Stop

United v Burnley

R

RobOda

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
I know it isn't on UK TV, but I watched it all the same.

Two big talking points:

1. Rashford red card for 'headbutt' - Can't complain.

But then, I think Moss missed something here:

2. Burnley 'handball DOSGO?'

Lukaku and a defender charging through clean on towards the box. Defender goes down and grabs the ball. Had he not, Lukaku was one on one. Didn't even get a card, I don't even think he got a freekick?

A few minutes later, Pogba handles the ball in the middle and Moss goes to caution him and I can only presume he realised he would look a massive hypocrite as he changed his mind rather quickly - I'm going by his hand going straight for the card in his pocket here.

Still, I thought that was a poor miss for the handball. What do you guys think? (I'm trying to find a clip of the handball, but no luck yet...)
 
The Ref Stop
If anything Bardsley should have seen red for the kick out on Rashford while he was on the floor. Struggling to see this as anything more than handbags (have only seen one angle atm, could be wrong)
 
Just watched. RC is correct IMHO. And the YC too. Bardsley's swipe with the legs is consistent with the act of straightening out his leg to get up. He does it in a reckless way to trip Rashford, so YC is a good call. It's clever, but I don't think it is anywhere close to RC. Marcus on the other hand is very silly here. All he has to do is stay down, clutch his leg and the opponent should get a YC. Instead, he puts his head to the opponent's head - and it's not trifling. It has to be red IMHO.

The players obviously know Moss well. I would still like him to assume a position where he is facing all the players.

If I am AR2, I would be in-shot and right there during the handbags. Maybe there is a specific directive to EPL assistants. But I am sprinting down the line towards that corner if my ref is faced with 14 players pushing and shoving, no matter how familiar we are. I am a bit shocked not to see any AR in shot during the sequence. (I can just see AR1 in the fuzzy background comes 3 yards onto the field).
 
Those in the UK will only have seen it if they were at the game or watched an illegal feed, so without clips we will be a bit stuck until MOTD2 comes on.
 
We have this a lot. Going over old ground the motioning of the head is yellow, actually head butting somebody is red
From the clip above, leaving aside the stupidity to get involved at all, I do not see violence.
Am not convinced I want anybody to remain on the park who is willing to use his head but unless he actually does the head butt, its a yc.
I dont see the head butt, The motioning of the head, yes. The violence, no
 
I happened to read this earlier in the good book:
"In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible."

I know it says hand or arm... and I know e.g. MLS has its own strong guidance for refs on anything to the head... and I don't know what the Prem guidance is... but this is the nearest we have in the LotG. In this section, there doesn't have to be violence - just non-negligible. Just like deliberate doesn't mean deliberate, violent doesn't mean violent in the IFAB small print!

The force wasn't negligible in this case IMHO.

I think this is an easy red in the park or on the telly.

I'm interested if you would give a YC at grassroots?
 
santa sangria said:
I happened to read this earlier in the good book:
"In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible."

I know it says hand or arm... and I know e.g. MLS has its own strong guidance for refs on anything to the head... and I don't know what the Prem guidance is... but this is the nearest we have in the LotG. In this section, there doesn't have to be violence - just non-negligible. Just like deliberate doesn't mean deliberate, violent doesn't mean violent in the IFAB small print!

The force wasn't negligible in this case IMHO.

I think this is an easy red in the park or on the telly.

I'm interested if you would give a YC at grassroots?
Click to expand...



Am very much of the opinion that this is textbook negligible.
I dont even see ANY force tbh, far less negligible.
Why he sent off? A head butt? In no way can Rashford be guilty of a head butt there. Use of head, maybe....a slight tickling of the eye brow, maybe.
But forceful?
 
Unless I misunderstood this is exactly the type of negligible we wer taught when this law was introduced. 2 players going head to head with no strike e.g.
Personally think a red is harsh.
 
I think that he makes to make contact means it's not negligible... but this is another one where knowing any guidance would easily sway in one or the other. The contact is not incidental - it's intentional - that's enough for me to get past negligible.

But the real problem with interpretation is that the "negligible" line is out of context here as it is for arms/hands to the face. There's nothing in the LotG about head to head threshold for VC so we have to interpret.

Does anyone know what the EPL officials are taught on this - that helps understand Moss' decision?
 
If Rashford pushing his head forward at slow speed is violent conduct then Bardsley’s kicking out certainly is.
Two yellows.
 
Bardsley kick = yellow
Rashford head in = yellow

Bardsley then does EXACTLY what Rashford did = 2nd yellow

I'm double-yellowing Bardsley and he's walking...

"Where two separate cautionable offences are committed (even in close
proximity), they should result in two cautions"
 
Unless things have changed, Nasri was sent off at Norwich in 2012 for simulating a head butt... Of course Rashford's was a red - two yellows for Bardsley sounds right.

"Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent..."
 
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https://k.top4top.net/m_975g3ncn1.mp4 Good quality vid with multiple replays.

Red card for both Rashford and Bardsley for me. Start at 10:00 on the vid.

Rashford headbutt is deceiving in slowmo (VAR replay speed debate anyone?). I have no doubt had contact been an inch lower, it would have split open the skin an drawn blood. Either way its an act of violence.

Bardsley kick out is also excessive force. Players have been sent off for less forceful kick outs than that on many occasions. I vaguely remember Rooney. Also Beckham (but I think that was world cup). RefChat historian can help here.

Also easy DOGSO HB to Mee missed. 15.20 on the vid.
 
RustyRef said:
Those in the UK will only have seen it if they were at the game or watched an illegal feed, so without clips we will be a bit stuck until MOTD2 comes on.
Click to expand...

If you have SKY Q and have downloaded the app you can watch 3 min highlights of each game long before MOTD
 
For me Rashford is a red card. I know that we have to considering the force used etc but surely we'd all consider one player running at another, putting their head in and slightly pushing forward as an act of violence?
 
QuaverRef said:
For me Rashford is a red card. I know that we have to considering the force used etc but surely we'd all consider one player running at another, putting their head in and slightly pushing forward as an act of violence?
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Then you would have to consider someone rushing in, squaring up, and raising their hands to be vc too, which of course, its not
Directive was changed years ago that the motioning of head is not vc, not negating that if its brutality, then it is a red card
For me, you sum it up. Pushing slightly forward, is not violent.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Then you would have to consider someone rushing in, squaring up, and raising their hands to be vc too, which of course, its not
Directive was changed years ago that the motioning of head is not vc, not negating that if its brutality, then it is a red card
For me, you sum it up. Pushing slightly forward, is not violent.
Click to expand...

I'll be honest, I'm struggling here. I really don't see how pushing your head into somebody else's isn't an act of violence.
 
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