The Ref Stop

U13 - Penalty Decision

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DiscoDave

New Member
So under 13 match.
Two players battling for the ball, run into the penalty area on the right side of goal passing the 6 yard line.
Defending player pulls once lightly on the attacking players short but nothing over the top, both stay on their feet, neither is off balance and the attacking player also doesn’t remonstrate or complain and they both play on.
Ref blows for a penalty due to the shirt pulling by defender..

Is this over zealous by the ref?….
 
The Ref Stop
If the ref thought it's a foul, it's a foul.

Attacker staying on his feet or remonstrating having an impact on it being a foul or not is just something you learn from tv referees. Laws of the game say nothing about it.
 
one said:
If the ref thought it's a foul, it's a foul.

Attacker staying on his feet or remonstrating having an impact on it being a foul or not is just something you learn from tv referees. Laws of the game say nothing about it.
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Indeed. And yes nothing in Law about it. Just interested to hear the views of others with regards to judging the severity of an infraction to award a penalty, as worse tackles “outside” the penalty area hadn’t caused a free kick and there was no DOGSO. Awarding a penalty for something in the scheme of this particular game seemed inconsistent. In the end it’s about judging it at the time isn’t it :-). i guess I just wondered if most would award a penalty for a simple shirt pull. A tough one I know
 
None of us here can tell which was a foul and which wasn't. It's a you have to be there.
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve from the question here. Are you saying he was biased or just had a bad day at the office?

if the former I think you are not in the right place. If the latter then, he may have or just that you didn't agree with his decisions. But if he did, he is not the only one. We have all had bad days.
 
DiscoDave said:
Indeed. And yes nothing in Law about it. Just interested to hear the views of others with regards to judging the severity of an infraction to award a penalty, as worse tackles “outside” the penalty area hadn’t caused a free kick and there was no DOGSO. Awarding a penalty for something in the scheme of this particular game seemed inconsistent. In the end it’s about judging it at the time isn’t it :). i guess I just wondered if most would award a penalty for a simple shirt pull. A tough one I know
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I think the key piece you are missing is that the R had a different view than you did. The R may well have seen more of a pull then you did, and may well have seen how that affected the attacker in a way that you didn’t. Holding an opponent is an offense. The higher the level, the more likely some holds will be considered trifling and not called. But 13 year olds are not professionals, and the trifling standard is much difference. It is very likely that the play would not be considered a good foul call in a professional game, but was the proper call in a 13U game.
 
one said:
None of us here can tell which was a foul and which wasn't. It's a you have to be there.
I am not sure what you are trying to achieve from the question here. Are you saying he was biased or just had a bad day at the office?

if the former I think you are not in the right place. If the latter then, he may have or just that you didn't agree with his decisions. But if he did, he is not the only one. We have all had bad days.
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I am trying to understand his decision..so I can make better ones myself going forward. I would hate to not award a penalty for a shirt pull if it’s “generally” seen to be a foul if in the penalty area.
My initial view on it is that it’s harsh as it didn’t stop play and didn’t stop a promising attack. so it’s mainly trying to understand if going forward I should be looking to award a penalty myself for such play.
 
socal lurker said:
I think the key piece you are missing is that the R had a different view than you did. The R may well have seen more of a pull then you did, and may well have seen how that affected the attacker in a way that you didn’t. Holding an opponent is an offense. The higher the level, the more likely some holds will be considered trifling and not called. But 13 year olds are not professionals, and the trifling standard is much difference. It is very likely that the play would not be considered a good foul call in a professional game, but was the proper call in a 13U game.
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Indeed and a good point. You always see the game differently from the sidelines (although in this case I was on sidelines myself right next to the play).
Either way thanks to both of you for your responses. Good info and things to consider.
 
DiscoDave said:
I am trying to understand his decision..so I can make better ones myself going forward. I would hate to not award a penalty for a shirt pull if it’s “generally” seen to be a foul if in the penalty area.
My initial view on it is that it’s harsh as it didn’t stop play and didn’t stop a promising attack. so it’s mainly trying to understand if going forward I should be looking to award a penalty myself for such play.
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Fair enough on this post. But this is not what I got from your opening post or post #3. TBH they sounded like something I hear from losing unhappy managers or parent who approach referees at the end of the game.

On the question, a hold is a hold. By the book it's a free kick. Not stopping play or promising attack won't negate it being a foul. But keep in mind even that is subjective. You may think that it didn't impact anything, but the referee may think it impacted the attackers ability to play the ball.

However we all have different foul tolerance levels. Mine even changes from game to game. You prob won't give the OP a foul but another referee may because your foul tolerance is different to theirs.
 
Indeed I guess I would prefer there to be consistency in the game.

I will certainly look at consistency when reffing going forward and if I have penalised a player for shirt pulling earlier then giving the foul for the same offence in the penalty area and awarding a penalty is certainly more consistent and “sellable” to everyone.

I am still learning and shirt pulling seems to be very common in the game and so having a better understanding of where to draw the line is very helpful. As you say, most of this will differ from game to game and so the more I do the better I think I will be able to judge the offence and act accordingly.
Thanks
 
I've only skimmed above... apologies if repeating.

Obviously I wasn't there, but can understand a PK being given for all the usual reasons (different angle etc).

Perhaps the ref had warned the defender/teams multiple times... continued to do it, it might be soft but they've been warned?
 
DAW7 said:
I've only skimmed above... apologies if repeating.

Obviously I wasn't there, but can understand a PK being given for all the usual reasons (different angle etc).

Perhaps the ref had warned the defender/teams multiple times... continued to do it, it might be soft but they've been warned?
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i have previously taken a “stepped” approach to this especially with the age group. So having a word first, then a verbal warning, then awarding fouls. I have never felt the need to award a YC (ref didn’t award a card in this case - just the pen).
I am a new ref and still learning.
 
DiscoDave said:
i have previously taken a “stepped” approach to this especially with the age group. So having a word first, then a verbal warning, then awarding fouls. I have never felt the need to award a YC (ref didn’t award a card in this case - just the pen).
I am a new ref and still learning.
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With this age group I think the stepped approach is especially important, although I do find it can become a little hazy. What would be a public verbal warning at OA might actually be you taking a few seconds to educate the player.

Excuse my ignorance, are you saying you wouldn't award a foul/PK unless you've spoken to and warned the players? For me the stepped approach is about the "punishment" (happy to be wrong here).
1) jogging back after giving a FK... just watch those arms #5.
2) #5 over here. That's x many now, a push in the back like that is a foul. Anymore I might need my cards.
3) possibly carding future offences etc

I had a similar thing in a game today, I posted the scenario on a different thread.
 
No..a foul is a foul whenever it happens in a match. At this level the kids are still learning the game themselves and to throw the book at them unless it’s 100% warranted seems harsh that’s all especially if previous infractions outside the penalty area previously have been ignored. I am coming to the conclusion that i should take the view that if you start a match and nip in the Bud straight away any action like shirt pulling or a careless tackle…and award a free kick plus have a word to the offending player, then awarding a penalty for a similar offence later in the game is for sure more “sellable”. You have also shown to the players where the line is in the game early on. Again, I’m new and trying to find my way.
 
Doubtful, trivial, careless, reckless, and SFP.

The description appears its trivial vs careless. Careless will be a PK.

Holding? Well, doubtful, trivial, not trivial. Well, if not trivial, PK.

If it was trivial, possibly persistent infringement.

If it was trivial, the offensive player may have talked to the referee on a prior play. Sometimes I dont see everything or the players are griping about a loose game.

Ok, so they want me to tighten up or take an extra moment to 'see' it.

The OP reminds me of a class, a video shown, everyone raised a colored card of their call. Strangely, there was no agreement. We had no foul, foul but trivial, foul, and reckless as results. We really do have our own levels and the same LOTG.
 
DiscoDave said:
I am trying to understand his decision..so I can make better ones myself going forward. I would hate to not award a penalty for a shirt pull if it’s “generally” seen to be a foul if in the penalty area.
My initial view on it is that it’s harsh as it didn’t stop play and didn’t stop a promising attack. so it’s mainly trying to understand if going forward I should be looking to award a penalty myself for such play.
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It doesn’t have to stop play or stop an attack to be a foul. It has to unfairly disadvantage the opponent.
Tim - 2013 said:
Doubtful, trivial, careless, reckless, and SFP.

The description appears its trivial vs careless. Careless will be a PK.
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CREF doesn’t apply to holding.
 
DiscoDave said:
Indeed I guess I would prefer there to be consistency in the game.
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That's never going to happen precisely because people have different views on the threshold of a foul. If the referee himself was consistent in his own decisions on that game, then I don't care what some other referee did or thinks, that has no bearing on the match.

one said:
But this is not what I got from your opening post or post #3. TBH they sounded like something I hear from losing unhappy managers or parent who approach referees at the end of the game.
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This is the vibe I'm getting from the thread in full tbh. 😕
 
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DiscoDave said:
So under 13 match.
Two players battling for the ball, run into the penalty area on the right side of goal passing the 6 yard line.
Defending player pulls once lightly on the attacking players short but nothing over the top, both stay on their feet, neither is off balance and the attacking player also doesn’t remonstrate or complain and they both play on.
Ref blows for a penalty due to the shirt pulling by defender..

Is this over zealous by the ref?….
Click to expand...
Your decision, for me, would be based on "why did the defender do it". It seems a penalty would not be expected but would be correct in law.
 
Max2 said:
Consider it a learning point for the defender who conceded the foul. Don’t blame the official who saw it, it’s the fault of the player who DID it
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socal lurker said:
It doesn’t have to stop play or stop an attack to be a foul. It has to unfairly disadvantage the opponent.

CREF doesn’t apply to
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Kent Ref said:
Your decision, for me, would be based on "why did the defender do it". It seems a penalty would not be expected but would be correct in law.
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Yes, perfect. Their choice of foul is their choice at the time and the fact it’s a shirt pull is irrelevant isn’t it as a foul is a foul they just chose to try a pull back. Any level of shirt pull in the PA could be given regardless of how long the duration or strength. This answers my first post and I will feel more comfortable with my decisions regarding this in my matches.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
 
@DiscoDave its a good question, do you play yourself or just ref?

from a players perspective, if I’ve grabbed a shirt in the box whilst defending and a penalty isn’t given, I will feel like I’ve got away with one there.

And if I’m reffing and I see shirt pulls I will nip it in the bud and warn players about it, I will make a point of making sure they all know I’m not having a game of lads running round grabbing and pulling each other.
I don’t take into consideration if the player “complains about it” because they shouldn’t have to communicate with me in order for a decision to go in their favour. Last thing I want is everyone screaming “ref?!!?!” because they’ve cottoned on that if they’re vocal they’re more likely to get a decision.

like you say, giving a penalty for a shirt pull that doesn’t really impact a player is a hard sell, especially if it’s the first one, and whilst it seems a bit harsh, especially at u13, it’s still a shirt pull and it’s still a foul. There’s been a few incidents in games where I’ve reffed where in my head I cringe and go “christ why have you done that????”, this is similar.

I think the key here isn’t the incident itself, but the bigger picture. It’s key to communicate, manage the game, and be consistent with applying the laws. That defender might be pulling shirts week in week out, at 13 he probably hasn’t really experienced any consequence to his actions, by applying the laws of the game you’re teaching him and helping him become a better player.
 
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