A&H

U12's - An inactive Sunday assistant!

Andrew.Rainsbury

Andrew.Rainsbury

Rainbow74
Observer/Tutor
All went well for my u12's appointment today...
Away point me in direction of their supporters as assistant had played some matches and wanted a rest, also felt that it's best to give to parents rather than coaches... another urban myth! Found a gentleman who will do first half, and appoint female assistant for 2nd half.
Uneventful first half ends 1-1 not one offside for both teams! Both quite sluggish!
Brief at HT to female assistant - explain what I want, says she doesn't really know the rules understands what I am telling her... ... can only work with the tools you're given! - 2nd half k/o found her stood on the line in the middle of her half and didn't seem to move despite me telling her she needs to shadow the last defenders run.
Cue an attacking corner, an inswinger a mele' of attempted shots and clearances - an attacking player appears to come in and poke the ball in at the far post from literally 1 yard at most!
I stand still whilst thinking, was he or wasn't he - they're off celebrating - I look up and she's halfway back - so no offside, besides I think there was man at front post and this all happened at far post and I was at edge of box/D.
I then point to the centre - she then as I'm running back decides to stick her flag up. I can't be sure that he was offside and as assistant did not flag and appeared to be retreating to halfway line - goal awarded.
So with that on my mind - as you will all be testimony too - the last thing you want is a controversial winner, fortunately the home team gets on the attack and bang another 2 in. From that point on I now sprint at every attack to ensure that I call correctly the offside. Need a Fitbit as I swear Ive done a marathon today! Eventually responsibility is given/taken back - although I wasn't told and should have had a word... tbh I was quite relived!!
The 3rd comes from a freekick awarded - where the player did get fouled for obstruction but none the less, did make the most of it - making sure I saw it and dived through 2 defenders who were sandwiching him... and caught his ankle.
He then duly dispatches a freekick into the top right and the keeper who couldn't catch a cold (aka flappyhandski) helps it in.
Then near ft a player jinks his way in - convinced I'm gonna be needed for a penalty call he out skills the lot and rather than dispatch a shot - he rounds the keeper for the glory 4-1. Played on a traditional council sandy pitch at the top of a hill on a wicked camber! #grf lol

So I guess the point of my post - parent assistants... know the rules and put some effort in... but at least she stick her hand up.
 
The Referee Store
My son goes to 9-a-side next year, over the summer - I intend to 'train' as many of the other parents as I can... at least for a home match I can be pretty sure then!" - I know I'll be appointed away team flag bearer... and wonder if turning up in my top or kit is a bit overboard... it would surely give confidence to the appointed ref... ?

Brian Hamilton said:
And the moral of the tale is Club ARs should not do offside OR the club should have a pool of people from whence they can draw a willing and previously instructed AR (instructed by a County FA tutor).
Click to expand...
 
Andrew.Rainsbury said:
My son goes to 9-a-side next year, over the summer - I intend to 'train' as many of the other parents as I can... at least for a home match I can be pretty sure then!" - I know I'll be appointed away team flag bearer... and wonder if turning up in my top or kit is a bit overboard... it would surely give confidence to the appointed ref... ?
Click to expand...
It would fill them with a sense of dread. It's one step further than saying, "I'm a qualified referee..."
 
Nothing worse than a CAR informing you he used to be a ref- you know you are in for a long slog in the middle as you try to work out if 'used to be' actually means he watched a clip on YouTube and listened to Alan Shearer on MotD.

Though to be fair I have had some level 8s who have been excellent. The problem seems to be with the older gentlemen
 
All you can do with an AR like this is position yourself like they're not even there.
We've had this discussion on here a few times before, but in a game like this, without neutral AR's I would position myself off the goal line for a corner kick. It would allow you to make a call in those close ball over the line scenarios - you may find it a better position for these offside decisions, you might not. It would probably be easier for some but not others. consider that positioning - whether you try it or not is up to you.

Beyond that, consider whether you could have been looking at things any differently to have spotted the potential offside with certainty, whether you could have been 'actively' looking for the offside as well as everything else. Even if you don't go off the goal line, perhaps a different position would have assisted. As a coaching point, try to consider why you weren't sure if that player was off and whether you could have done more to spot it. Not saying you did wrong - obviously, some are just tough to spot, but only you can look back and figure out if it's one you should have caught or not.


Andrew.Rainsbury said:
My son goes to 9-a-side next year, over the summer - I intend to 'train' as many of the other parents as I can... at least for a home match I can be pretty sure then!" - I know I'll be appointed away team flag bearer... and wonder if turning up in my top or kit is a bit overboard... it would surely give confidence to the appointed ref... ?
Click to expand...

Do you have rules over there about wearing your kit when not appointed?
Personally, I think performance in the first few minutes gives a better indication than the old 'I'm also a ref'. Clear signals, clearly staying in line, just generally appearing competent :)
 
Yesterday, I witnessed the opposite - An over active CAR. (Thankfully I was a spectator here not officiating) - My match was called off which in a way was good as it meant I got to watch my son's match (U12) which was a big one for him as he's just joined a new team and he was playing his old one.
Both side's coaches know me and know that I'm a ref and usually I get bought in to do the line, but this time someone else volunteered on my sons side, and the assistant coach took the line for his old team.

Everything about the latter's performance was wrong.
  • He was calling out of play when the ball hadn't fully crossed the line - At times putting his foot on the ball, stopping play himself rather than flagging and waiting for the whistle
  • Being rather a portly chap, he wasn't able to keep up with play, calling offside when he couldn't possibly have a decent correct view
  • He was shouting out for fouls - Telling the ref quite forcibly of his opinion
  • At one point he went on the FOP to stop play when he considered there to be a handball, when it was clearly non deliberate.
  • Actively jumping up and down and cheering when his teams score.
Knowing this CAR for some time, I have to add that he's a genuine nice guy and everything that he did was non malicious and I don't believe for one moment that there was any intent to cheat - but just a lack of knowledge or awareness of his responsibilities as a CAR.

The problem was that man in the middle must have been only 14 or 15 years old and didn't have the life skills/confidence to deal with the situation. The pre-match briefing was non-existent and he allowed himself to be influenced by the older/bigger guy.

I've seen situations like this a number of times from both coaches and parents who are persuaded to run the line, generally they're either not interested in doing so, they don't have enough knowledge or they are biased.

At what point would you ask for the CAR to be replaced?
 
Brian Hamilton said:
And the moral of the tale is Club ARs should not do offside OR the club should have a pool of people from whence they can draw a willing and previously instructed AR (instructed by a County FA tutor).
Click to expand...
I have to say, I'm baffled how a referee is supposed to get himself in position to call both offside lines at once?

I'm perfectly happy to work a little harder to shadow an assistant if I decide I don't trust their judgement (and that's certainly how I would have initially handled the OP's situation and that described by @tnichs ), but surely if you decide you can't trust either/choose not to give them any responsibility in the first place, the best you can do is be somewhere in between and guess?
 
You know within 3 decisions whether the CAR is any good just by signaling and positioning.I try and see who is offside and not and if I am looking at the car and his flag is up then I would say it is the right decision. Most CARs in the youth leagues tend to do it most weeks but you do get the odd one or two who become a handful. My biggest annoyance is CARs coaching even though i do ask them not to. I know if the coach is on the line there is not much you can do about this except remind not to coach on offside allthough nine times out of ten they are not in line with the last defender as they watching play
 
Andrew.Rainsbury said:
My son goes to 9-a-side next year, over the summer - I intend to 'train' as many of the other parents as I can... at least for a home match I can be pretty sure then!" - I know I'll be appointed away team flag bearer... and wonder if turning up in my top or kit is a bit overboard... it would surely give confidence to the appointed ref... ?
Click to expand...

It's overboard, and if I do have to do it, I never tell the ref that I'm qualified.

I always put my kit in the car for my lad's away games though, you can almost guarantee you'll end up doing one game a season when the ref doesn't turn up, I've done 2 this season. I always prefer when the ref doesn't use CARs as it's nice to get a break and it's a good opportunity to educate other parents on the LotG whenever anything happens.
 
tnichs said:
Yesterday, I witnessed the opposite - An over active CAR.
  • He was shouting out for fouls - Telling the ref quite forcibly of his opinion
  • At one point he went on the FOP to stop play when he considered there to be a handball, when it was clearly non deliberate.
  • Actively jumping up and down and cheering when his teams score.
Click to expand...
I had a very similar assistant last season - he was one of the team coaches and not only was he continuing to coach but as I had told both CARs that they were not to give fouls he was appealing constantly - at one point he even appealed for a throw-in so I told him that it would be easier if he put his flag up and indicated which team should get the throw rather than shouting!

I finally got him to behave when his team had a break-away attack. He started yelling, "go, go go," and pointing his flag towards the goal. I immediately blew my whistle, "What was wrong with that?" he asked. "I'm not sure," I said, "but you were waving your flag so I assumed you had spotted something."
 
Gosh, I disagree with so much of this.

CARs - we know this is regional in the UK, and our preferences come from what we are used to. Down South we use them - treat them well and as part of your team and you can get real positives out of them being there, whilst being clear that they are there to assist. As you travel northwards, it is not common practice to use CARs, that's fine as well. I've had CAR's that have been a lot better on the line than NAR's - perhaps a lot more experienced at performing that role.

Wearing your referee kit as a CAR... I've often done a middle, and then lined for my son's team, or lined first; or I've been at my club well ahead of doing a middle, or after a middle, and been asked to line for another age group. In my experience, the referee in the middle appreciates having another referee there - but perhaps this is down to how you introduce yourself and carry out the CAR role. I always ask the referee what they want from me, and in particular fouls or no fouls. Some referees are happy for you to give fouls, others not - because the other CAR has been told no fouls. That's fine - I'll do ball in/out of play, and offside. One thing I've noticed is that I get a lot less abuse from parents on offside calls when I'm in black, rather than team colours, although I have occasionally had to explain why I haven't flagged for a foul. As a qualified, practising referee, its not about whether you wear kit or not, its about how you act and how you treat your colleague in the middle.

Back to the original OP, @Andrew.Rainsbury - it sounds as if you had to go looking for a CAR. That's not your job, its up to each team to provide one. If they cannot be bothered to find someone to carry out the role, that's fine, start without one.

*Update* - Politely tell the manager that you'll do the best you can on ball in/out of play and offsides...

Only once in all my matches has it got to this, and at a stop in play the home team volunteered one of their parents to cover the away team's line.

@tnichs - have a polite word with your team's manager, who should then talk to the other team's manager, who should then speak to the CAR. Sometimes the nice guys don't know they are doing something they shouldn't be doing, and are happy to be put right. Sometimes of course, they know and don't care, and it can flare up - but really your team manager should be as unhappy as you if the oppo's CAR is behaving in this way, and it should be put right. In terms of being in the middle and getting a CAR replaced, follow a variation of the stepped process. If they flag for offside, you had a view but weren't sure, go with it - but go and speak with the CAR to confirm why they are flagging. If its clearly (to you) an incorrect flag, acknowledge the CAR but play on; if this happens again speak with the CAR - in my experience its a lack of knowledge rather than intentionally being biased. For coaching, a gentle word first, a public request second, a public warning, then remove. Stopping the ball, flagging for fouls, intruding on to the pitch or being loud about decisions you are/are not making - educate, ask, require, remove.

@jamie0114 - like you, I have my refereeing go bag in the boot of my car, and regularly get changed out of my club gear in to my black kit. What is particularly annoying is when the away club that didn't confirm their appointed ref, or simply haven't organised a ref, and I get "volunteered", they then don't thank-you post match, or offer you the match fee (I don't do it for the fee, and have often turned it down, but surely common courtesy...). Our league has a rule that if there is no official appointed, if there is a qualified referee present they must do the game ahead of a manager / coach / parent. I don't know if that is a standard / common league rule?
 
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Brian Hamilton said:
And the moral of the tale is Club ARs should not do offside OR the club should have a pool of people from whence they can draw a willing and previously instructed AR (instructed by a County FA tutor).
Click to expand...
ABSOLUTELY...club AR's are to let you know when the whole of the ball has crossed the line and which way to go (until they show bias, in which case take back control).
 
Brian Hamilton said:
And the moral of the tale is Club ARs should not do offside OR the club should have a pool of people from whence they can draw a willing and previously instructed AR (instructed by a County FA tutor).
Click to expand...

As much as I agree with the sentiment here, this is a somewhat unrealistic expectation, at least in the games I've reffed thus far.

Some CARs may not be the greatest, but there's also absolutely no way I could be a suitable position to call ALL offsides, and call them correctly too - I don't know about anyone else, but I've never not asked a CAR to call the offsides - if there are a few dubious decisions that I'm suspicious of then I start trying to be a bit more mindful of it, but I still think it'd be incredibly tough if it was left for me to do them all.

And the 'pool of people' is a good idea too, but most of the CARs I have are subs who generally stay about three quarters of the way down the half with their hands in the pockets...
 
Being a southerner, I use CARs all the time.

If you think , for whatever reason, they are not calling offsides correctly, best you can do is to get in a position to call them yourself at free kicks, aftermath of corners - that's when many contentious calls are made or not!

Disallowed a goal yesterday for offside resulting from a fk, you would expect CAR to flag "for" his team but he didn't - I was in line for free kick so could clearly see attacker was offside.
 
I've posted this before but no harm in reviving it:

CARs are:
- OK if you restrict them to ball in/out
- Very useful for helping with offside
- Completely useless and should be discouraged whenever possible
- Cheating *******s
- Honest as the day is long
- Completely ignorant
- Surprisingly competent
- Smoking, texting layabouts
- Enthusiastic and impartial
- Casual flag abusers
- Refchat contributors

I think all of these are true.
 
my CAR yesterday was the home team manager, and a ref, who i know is still active as he operates in the vets league i play in .
not really up with play, on his phone on one occasion in the 2nd half , flagging for offsides with goal kick signal ! then had the cheek to say i had a poor game ( i'd sent off one of their centre midfielders, awarded a pen against them for handball, and denied them a pen when their striker 'ran over' an already prone goalkeeper ) Mind you he said i'd handled things well not 20 seconds later.
If i hadnt known he was a ref and assumed he was a regular CAR , i'd not have been surprised by a performance like that,... i guess hes done more middles than lines in recent history and a bit rusty
 
At free kicks which are near the area I always position my self with the last defender to try and spot offside as the kick is being taken even with CARs
 
In my area, Melbourne Australia, convention is that CAR's do offside, but no fouls (of course some will still flag for them anyway). That's fine - but I actively look for offside myself as well, and at critical scenarios position myself like there is no CAR. You get an early measure as to how much you can 'trust' them and adjust your positioning to suit.
Where I refereed before that, we didn't use CAR's at all. I've been fortunate to have no CAR who was really causing problems, but I think I prefer no CAR. Just one less thing I don't have to bother with or think about for the game really, though it does leave me with a bit more running.
 
If they are not moving with play i go over at a stoppage and ask if everything is ok and remind them of my instruction to follow the defence as it makes them look credible to the opposition and to me. If that fails then i start running harder to get in line and ignore them.
 
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