Tourettes -how much leaway?

[Taity78]

I had a game at the weekend, where a player (U14) has tourettes, the player informed me before we kicked off as did the two coaches about this and to begin with I was fearing the worst - the players tourettes wasn't evident to me during the first half, however in the second half it became a bit more noticeable - the words being heard were increasing with volume and also profanity - I know swearing isn't an issue unless it is OFFINABUS, however I see opposing coaches raising eyebrows - this is under 14's and there were no C bombs being dropped, however it was more like Pr!ck, A$$hole and word I haven't heard for a while "prossie" when they were clearing the ball - there were also chants of ave it etc - I guess my question is more aimed at what the players future holds as on a different day the words used (not through choice) could be more OFFINABUS but wanted to gauge people opinions.
A question I had in my head was could I have cautioned them if it had got to the C bomb level instead of sending them off but then how would that play out? it is one I have questioned since the game but there are too many "what if's" - I could only manage the game in front of me and I believe I did effectively.

 

[Kes]

I had a game at the weekend, where a player (U14) has tourettes, the player informed me before we kicked off as did the two coaches about this and to begin with I was fearing the worst - the players tourettes wasn't evident to me during the first half, however in the second half it became a bit more noticeable - the words being heard were increasing with volume and also profanity - I know swearing isn't an issue unless it is OFFINABUS, however I see opposing coaches raising eyebrows - this is under 14's and there were no C bombs being dropped, however it was more like Pr!ck, A$$hole and word I haven't heard for a while "prossie" when they were clearing the ball - there were also chants of ave it etc - I guess my question is more aimed at what the players future holds as on a different day the words used (not through choice) could be more OFFINABUS but wanted to gauge people opinions.
A question I had in my head was could I have cautioned them if it had got to the C bomb level instead of sending them off but then how would that play out? it is one I have questioned since the game but there are too many "what if's" - I could only manage the game in front of me and I believe I did effectively.

As has been discussed on previous threads regarding OFFINABUS, don't get tied up in trying to decide what words constitute it. Swearing per se isn't it.

For me, with someone like that who has an obvious disability, the words used are immaterial. The manner and at whom they're directed would be of more importance.

In any event, tolerance is the key here I think. If the player's condition is known, then tolerance needs to be shown not just by yourself but by the other players, coaches and onlookers too. Anything else is potentially a springboard into a whole can of worms.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I had a game at the weekend, where a player (U14) has tourettes, the player informed me before we kicked off as did the two coaches about this and to begin with I was fearing the worst - the players tourettes wasn't evident to me during the first half, however in the second half it became a bit more noticeable - the words being heard were increasing with volume and also profanity - I know swearing isn't an issue unless it is OFFINABUS, however I see opposing coaches raising eyebrows - this is under 14's and there were no C bombs being dropped, however it was more like Pr!ck, A$$hole and word I haven't heard for a while "prossie" when they were clearing the ball - there were also chants of ave it etc - I guess my question is more aimed at what the players future holds as on a different day the words used (not through choice) could be more OFFINABUS but wanted to gauge people opinions.
A question I had in my head was could I have cautioned them if it had got to the C bomb level instead of sending them off but then how would that play out? it is one I have questioned since the game but there are too many "what if's" - I could only manage the game in front of me and I believe I did effectively.

I really wouldn’t agree with any ref who cautioned or sent of a player for having a tic that’s explicit.

 

[ulloi129]

Tourette symptoms are getting worse with anxiety, stress and fatigue. I'm no referee, but have some experience in the mental health field: you should not penalize someone for these issues, especially a teenager. Communicating it with the opposition team beforehand should be enough.

 

[JamesL]

I think if the Tic's are starting to escalate, in terms of frequency and explicitness, then for player welfare i'd be suggesting to the players manager that he gives him a break (roll on roll offs at this level remember) before he says something to someone that can't be ignored.

It's tricky because you can't give them carte blanche to say what they like because if it is of a discriminatory nature, tic or no, then this can't be ignored.. and then the issue of it being on account of a disability is one that the FA makes at a hearing.

There's also an issue of balance...
1 player calls me a cheating C that's a tic doesn't get sent off, another player does the same gets sent off? Irrespective of disability that isn't fair and there has to be an adult responsibility for the player that recognises when things are deteriorating for them and removes them from the situation that is directly impacting their tics to prevent them escalating to a point that can affect the players welfare and fair play

 

[Taity78]

I think if the Tic's are starting to escalate, in terms of frequency and explicitness, then for player welfare i'd be suggesting to the players manager that he gives him a break (roll on roll offs at this level remember) before he says something to someone that can't be ignored.

It's tricky because you can't give them carte blanche to say what they like because if it is of a discriminatory nature, tic or no, then this can't be ignored.. and then the issue of it being on account of a disability is one that the FA makes at a hearing.

There's also an issue of balance...
1 player calls me a cheating C that's a tic doesn't get sent off, another player does the same gets sent off? Irrespective of disability that isn't fair and there has to be an adult responsibility for the player that recognises when things are deteriorating for them and removes them from the situation that is directly impacting their tics to prevent them escalating to a point that can affect the players welfare and fair play

Valid points, thanks - one to remember for the future - use the coaches if things are escalating, a few minutes without the intensity of playing might do the world of good?

 

[Ref X]

I think about this as an equality vs equity conversation.

• Equality would be treating every player the same based on what they say.
• Equity is treating players slightly different based on their needs.

This is a situation that requires equity, not equality. This player has a disability and it's up to the league, teams, referee and even that player and the soccer world to find a solution.

There's also an issue of balance... 1 player calls me a cheating C that's a tic doesn't get sent off, another player does the same gets sent off? Irrespective of disability that isn't fair and there has to be an adult responsibility for the player that recognises when things are deteriorating for them and removes them from the situation that is directly impacting their tics to prevent them escalating to a point that can affect the players welfare and fair play

@JamesL In general this makes sense but I think as long as both teams and managers are fully explained the situation before the game, you can give this player more leeway and keep expectations for the other players the same. I think @ulloi129 has a good point above.

I do definitely agree about a potential sub it if's escalating though. Need to give this player some extra freedom IMO but can't let things continue to escalate, especially with discriminatory remarks or personal attacks.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

1 player calls me a cheating C that's a tic doesn't get sent off, another player does the same gets sent off? Irrespective of disability that isn't fair and there has to be an adult responsibility for the player that recognises when things are deteriorating for them and removes them from the situation that is directly impacting their tics to prevent them escalating to a point that can affect the players welfare and fair play

It’s 100% fair to send the non disabled player off and not the disabled one. As long as everyone involved knows at the start. Tics are not controllable or even a lack of filter, it’s a physiological response.

 

[george.g]

It’s 100% fair to send the non disabled player off and not the disabled one. As long as everyone involved knows at the start. Tics are not controllable or even a lack of filter, it’s a physiological response.

I understand where @JamesL comes from though. We can explain what we want to players beforehand, they won't listen to us about 99% of things we say, what makes us think players would approach this differently. We might hope they would, given its sensitive nature, but chances are they won't.

It creates a huge issue if you dismiss one player for one thing and not another for the same, I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, morally or within the LOTG, but I can definitely forsee that harming match control from my perspective.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I understand where @JamesL comes from though. We can explain what we want to players beforehand, they won't listen to us about 99% of things we say, what makes us think players would approach this differently. We might hope they would, given its sensitive nature, but chances are they won't.

It creates a huge issue if you dismiss one player for one thing and not another for the same, I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, morally or within the LOTG, but I can definitely forsee that harming match control from my perspective.

It might well harm match control, but so would sending off a player for using “mong” because it’s a slur. Because most players don’t know its origin.

It’s arguably against the equality act to not take that players disability into account.

 

[JamesL]

It’s arguably against the equality act to not take that players disability into account.

Woah! Woah! Woah!

Where has anyone said that they won't take it into account? If you're going to quote only part of what I said then of course it might look like that but actually if you read my whole post my first thought is to find a potential solution to help the player.

Tics aren't nice for those wit tourette's syndrome to endure so by allowing the child to be in a situation that is actively making their tics worse (as per the OP) is arguably much worse for the child's welfare than being sent off.

Equality act (in terms of employment) is about making reasonable adjustments. So in this case a reasonable adjustment is that we allow a greater level of leniency, but once we enter anything of discriminatory nature or personal abuse that, In my opinion becomes unreasonable.

 

[Ben448844]

We are not doctors. Much like we cannot judge concussion, we cannot accurately judge how bad someone's tourettes is or when the words are the result of a tic or dissent. On that basis the cards are staying in my pocket. Particularly as someone has taken the unusual but much appreciated step of informing us before the game.

In summary, we are not qualified to know for sure whether the words are a result of the condition or not so it's benefit of the doubt stuff for me. I'm not creating problems for myself or the player either who must have had enough crap thrown in their direction due to this condition both in the sport and puts idea of it, especially considering their age.

 

[JamesL]

We are not doctors. Much like we cannot judge concussion, we cannot accurately judge how bad someone's tourettes is or when the words are the result of a tic or dissent. On that basis the cards are staying in my pocket. Particularly as someone has taken the unusual but much appreciated step of informing us before the game.

In summary, we are not qualified to know for sure whether the words are a result of the condition or not so it's benefit of the doubt stuff for me. I'm not creating problems for myself or the player either who must have had enough crap thrown in their direction due to this condition both in the sport and puts idea of it, especially considering their age.

So you're going to allow comments of any nature?
There has to be a line somewhere...

 

[george.g]

It might well harm match control, but so would sending off a player for using “mong” because it’s a slur. Because most players don’t know its origin.

It’s arguably against the equality act to not take that players disability into account.

So if a player with tourettes calls you a "m*ng", what course of action would you take? I'm not attacking your POV, but intrigued

 

[Ben448844]

So you're going to allow comments of any nature?
There has to be a line somewhere...

This kid is an u14 and the ref has been aware that he has tourettes. That wouldn't have occured unless the manager was expecting outbursts due to the kids condition and that will be based on previous experiences.

We're not doctors, we cannot judge how severe someone's tourettes is. But this is a kid who's clearly going to have had a tough time due to his condition. I'm taking this at face value and the word of the manager and not being sinnacle that a kid is using tourettes as an excuse to swear at people. The game is for everyone and I'm not looking to decipher if the profanity is conditional or a choice, especially as I have zero medical knowledge or experience to do so

Am I going to be offended, insulted or abused by a young kid with tourettes? No I am not.

 

[JamesL]

This kid is an u14 and the ref has been aware that he has tourettes. That wouldn't have occured unless the manager was expecting outbursts due to the kids condition and that will be based on previous experiences.

We're not doctors, we cannot judge how severe someone's tourettes is. But this is a kid who's clearly going to have had a tough time due to his condition. I'm taking this at face value and the word of the manager and not being sinnacle that a kid is using tourettes as an excuse to swear at people. The game is for everyone and I'm not looking to decipher if the profanity is conditional or a choice, especially as I have zero medical knowledge or experience to do so

Am I going to be offended, insulted or abused by a young kid with tourettes? No I am not.

So if he tics a racist or homophobic slur or other discriminatory remark/comment, you're going to be ok with that? Which is what am getting at mainly.
There has to be a line somewhere else we'll be plagued with the non-genuine all suddenly popping up saying they have Tourette's.

(I've already pointed out that this is a child. I've already said that in line with OP where the tics are clearly getting worse as a result of the game that there are better options for the child's welfare.)

 

[ulloi129]

So if he tics a racist or homophobic slur or other discriminatory remark/comment, you're going to be ok with that? Which is what am getting at mainly.
There has to be a line somewhere else we'll be plagued with the non-genuine all suddenly popping up saying they have Tourette's.

(I've already pointed out that this is a child. I've already said that in line with OP where the tics are clearly getting worse as a result of the game that there are better options for the child's welfare.)

James, the symptoms might get worse with fatigue, anxiety and stress. A game of football will provide all three. But sport in general and in the long run seems to be helpful for many. You might want to check out some TS literature, it might help you in dealing with the situation. I don't think you should worry about kids with 'non-genuine' TS though.

 

[JamesL]

James, the symptoms might get worse with fatigue, anxiety and stress. A game of football will provide all three. But sport in general and in the long run seems to be helpful for many. You might want to check out some TS literature, it might help you in dealing with the situation. I don't think you should worry about kids with 'non-genuine' TS though.

Yes. And that's where the welfare part comes in. Tourette's tics are not comfortable for the sufferer. So if they are getting worse, the better solution is to allow them time to rest and try and recover from the increase in tic's as that is beneficial for their well being.

 

[ulloi129]

It might be better. But the kid and their parents are the ones who know what works in that specific case. And I'm pretty sure they have consulted with the coach and the other players as well. Just talk with the coach and/or the parents before the game. They have been dealing with it for a long time.

 

[RustyRef]

Difficult one. Playing devil's advocate, what is to stop a manager telling a referee that a player has tourettes, perhaps a player that is renowned for getting in trouble for abusing referees, just to try and avoid him getting in trouble? Or what about a 14 year old who is in a child referral unit due to violent outbursts, perhaps because of a difficult upbringing at home, do we then take that into account if he punches someone? Don't really think there is an easy or right answer here.

I've only been alerted to this as an incident once before a game, and it was such a non-issue I wouldn't have been even able to identify the player that was suffering from tourettes.