TOT V NEW (not another one)

[PinnerPaul]

That's not an unfair question, but again it highlights how short-sighted the previous moaning was. Now we can at least discuss your question. 2 or 3 years ago, everyone just assumed "consistency" was the correct answer.

I think the only foolproof consistency model is the one used in Hockey - it hits your foot you're penalised - doesn't matter, how, where, why - but no one wants that either!

 

[RustyRef]

Yes the point about 'bringing us in line' with other countries was made on MOTD2 - but why the need?

Anthony Taylor told us in a talk that he knew he had to referee CL games differently to UK games because expectations on certain offences , inc handball, were different.

We've had numerous discussions on here - U12s, Dog and Duck, semi pro football, PL - all refereed differently for perfectly plausible reasons,

One of many examples - NO ONE EVER in the professional game penalises GKs for the 6 second rule - as I've said before it can be 20 seconds in the Championship games I've seen live - the laws are and always have been adapted - for the IFAB to dictate and the PGMOL to agree that games here should exactly match Serie A is absurd.

I think the reason is the absolute mess PGMOL made of VAR last season. Reading between the lines I think FIFA have said if you want to continue to have the license to use VAR you must use it the same way every other country does.

And that is what has happened. Equally though, it is a global game, so why do we think in England we have a right to do things differently?

 

[one]

How do we fix it?

We fix it by having the right people do the analysis, the right people input into it and the right people word it into the laws. We don't have an architect build a house, why are referees wording the laws into the book? Architect designs, builder builds.

The concept we had with the words usualy and not usually was not too far away. It was just worded badly. Not suitable for a book that has the the word laws in the title. So instead of fixing it properly they just removed those words. The result, we have situations that shouldn't be handball but it is under the lotg definition.

 

[PinnerPaul]

I think the reason is the absolute mess PGMOL made of VAR last season. Reading between the lines I think FIFA have said if you want to continue to have the license to use VAR you must use it the same way every other country does.

And that is what has happened. Equally though, it is a global game, so why do we think in England we have a right to do things differently?

OR why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us - it works both ways and rather denies the fact that as nations across the world we ARE all different!

 

[JamesL]

OR why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us - it works both ways and rather denies the fact that as nations across the world we ARE all different!

Not sure I buy into that. The laws of the game are the same and should be universally applied around the world.
This promotes fair play, an ethos of the governing body.
Even more so with the eye watering sums of money on offer to successful clubs/nations.
Domestically, of course, the game will be played differently in terms of tactics etc. But what should be avoided is situations where referees are giving wildly different decisions.
Let's say 4 teams are in the semi finals of a Major knock out tournament, the identical incidence of handball occurs in both games. 1 team is awarded a penalty that sees them through to the final, the other team are not awarded a match winning penalty and go on to lose and after the tournament the governing body come out and say well its a cultural difference between the referees interpretation of the handball law. What then?
You end up with aggrieved losers - 1 team seething as they weren't awarded the penalty, and the other loser seething because they conceded it.
Its not other countries deciding to do it differently. Fifa controls the game worldwide. Eufa etc control the game by continent, and are guided by fifa. And individual federations/associstions are controlled by their continental body who are ultimately controlled by FIFA. If FIFA say this is how handball should be interpreted, and we are the only nation that says no no no, we are doing it this way, then who is it that isn't complying?

 

[one]

OR why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us - it works both ways and rather denies the fact that as nations across the world we ARE all different!

Australia has decided from next year to take KFTPM from the back of the penalty arc, and play the game in four quarters. Why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us?

 

[socal lurker]

OR why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us - it works both ways and rather denies the fact that as nations across the world we ARE all different!

You do realize that the UK is quite well represented on IFAB, which wrote the new hadball law?

 

[RustyRef]

OR why do other countries think they have the right to do things differently to us - it works both ways and rather denies the fact that as nations across the world we ARE all different!

Because there is only one set of laws and the vast majority of other countries have followed them properly, like we now are even if FIFA have forced PGMOL's hands. It has long caused problems, English FIFA referees have to completely change their game when refereeing in Europe or tournaments. Can you imagine how difficult it was for our FIFA assistants last season - in domestic games they had to put the flag up for tight offsides whereas in Europe they had to keep it down. It has also caused major problems for overseas referees moving to England, they get destroyed by clubs when they first start refereeing here as they give out more cards, give handballs that English referees wouldn't, etc. We needed to be brought in line, it was long overdue.

 

[Kent Ref]

We have no gone down a road where a player is being penalised for accidental handball and people are speaking out. How do you feel about giving a team a penalty that is against the spirit of the game? Too many referees just say "i'm only doing what i am told" is a poor defence.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Thanks all for the discussion. Few points to counter in a friendly way!

1) To say that all games have to be refereed the same exactly as per laws ignores the many discussions we have had on here about refereeing games at different levels differently and 'managing' the laws as required and yet now we are saying we have to follow the interpretation exactly as in other countries - seems a little inconsistent to me

2) IFAB composition - yes well aware that IFAB is made up 1 rep from each of the 4 home FAs - does that make everything they decide correct? Also what we don't know is if they agreed to this new interpretation or not - the law relating to defending players handball hasn't actually changed this year don't forget

3) If we were discussing a few disgruntled losing managers having a moan and/or not understanding the law, then fine plough on - but what we're seeing is a universal condemnation from Roy Hodgson, to the players through to the fans - all should be ignored?

 

[socal lurker]

2) IFAB composition - yes well aware that IFAB is made up 1 rep from each of the 4 home FAs - does that make everything they decide correct? Also what we don't know is if they agreed to this new interpretation or not - the law relating to defending players handball hasn't actually changed this year don't forget

Since it takes a super majority for IFAB to do anything,they have a pretty strong voice in any final decision--there has to be support from the UK or the changes can't pass. But my comment wasn't about whether the new handball Law is "right"; it was about the claims that the rest of the world is imposing this on the poor defenseless UK. Which is utter nonsense, as the UK has, by far, the strongest impact on any changes to the Laws. (And if you look at my posts, I have never defended the 2019 changes, or the 2020 update to those changes. Indeed, I have criticized the overall thought shift of IFAB from the concepts of yore to the pedantic detail parsing the Laws are becoming. VAR makes it hard to turn that tide backwards, and as much as I'd like to blow up VAR completely, I just can't see a path to that genie being stuffed back in the bottle.)

We have no gone down a road where a player is being penalised for accidental handball and people are speaking out. How do you feel about giving a team a penalty that is against the spirit of the game? Too many referees just say "i'm only doing what i am told" is a poor defence.

What do you expect referees to do--ignore the Laws?!? The best way to get a bad law changed is to enforce it so that the problems are clearly revealed. Alas, I don't see any probability of IFAB moving back to concepts on handling--I expect for '21 we will get "improvements" to the language that add more specific circumstances and how they are to be handled.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Since it takes a super majority for IFAB to do anything,they have a pretty strong voice in any final decision--there has to be support from the UK or the changes can't pass. But my comment wasn't about whether the new handball Law is "right"; it was about the claims that the rest of the world is imposing this on the poor defenseless UK. Which is utter nonsense, as the UK has, by far, the strongest impact on any changes to the Laws. (And if you look at my posts, I have never defended the 2019 changes, or the 2020 update to those changes. Indeed, I have criticized the overall thought shift of IFAB from the concepts of yore to the pedantic detail parsing the Laws are becoming. VAR makes it hard to turn that tide backwards, and as much as I'd like to blow up VAR completely, I just can't see a path to that genie being stuffed back in the bottle.)



What do you expect referees to do--ignore the Laws?!? The best way to get a bad law changed is to enforce it so that the problems are clearly revealed. Alas, I don't see any probability of IFAB moving back to concepts on handling--I expect for '21 we will get "improvements" to the language that add more specific circumstances and how they are to be handled.

but the law has NOT been changed 19/20 - 20/21 re defenders - my point is we don't know who exactly has told UK to interpret it the same as Europe? Apart from making these easier to see the 'problem' would still be there without VAR. I'm a big critic of VAR, but don't think it is the main problem here.

 

[socal lurker]

but the law has NOT been changed 19/20 - 20/21 re defenders - my point is we don't know who exactly has told UK to interpret it the same as Europe? Apart from making these easier to see the 'problem' would still be there without VAR. I'm a big critic of VAR, but don't think it is the main problem here.

Yes it did, but not much. The inexplicable "usually" stuff all went away. But that means they discussed what changes to make.

I don't disagree that the changes are a challenge for those of us who don't use VAR. My point was that VAR drives rule makers to clear answers and to move away from subjective judgments, which means not using just "deliberate," but instead trying to define scenarios so that there can be consistency between the VAR and R.

The one advantage we get in games without VAR is that many of these minor non-deliberate handlings just aren't going to be seen in real time--which is why we've seen several of the controversial calls being made through the use of VAR.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Yes it did, but not much. The inexplicable "usually" stuff all went away. But that means they discussed what changes to make.

I don't disagree that the changes are a challenge for those of us who don't use VAR. My point was that VAR drives rule makers to clear answers and to move away from subjective judgments, which means not using just "deliberate," but instead trying to define scenarios so that there can be consistency between the VAR and R.

The one advantage we get in games without VAR is that many of these minor non-deliberate handlings just aren't going to be seen in real time--which is why we've seen several of the controversial calls being made through the use of VAR.

Fair comment re VAR

 

[Nij]

Thanks all for the discussion. Few points to counter in a friendly way!

1) To say that all games have to be refereed the same exactly as per laws ignores the many discussions we have had on here about refereeing games at different levels differently and 'managing' the laws as required and yet now we are saying we have to follow the interpretation exactly as in other countries - seems a little inconsistent to me

Different countries != Different levels.

You go easier on the ones who are there for a run and fun and getting drun(k), you ping even the subtle stuff and adhere to the standards set at that level in the pros.

That's the same regardless of where you are - a pro in England should expect the same decisions as a pro in Germany or Japan or Argentina.

2) IFAB composition - yes well aware that IFAB is made up 1 rep from each of the 4 home FAs - does that make everything they decide correct? Also what we don't know is if they agreed to this new interpretation or not - the law relating to defending players handball hasn't actually changed this year don't forget

Removal of the word "usually" is a major change! There should be no doubt now that X is handball and Z is not. You can argue whether Y is closer to one or the other, but the number of potential arguments about which decision is correct, is vastly reduced.

3) If we were discussing a few disgruntled losing managers having a moan and/or not understanding the law, then fine plough on - but what we're seeing is a universal condemnation from Roy Hodgson, to the players through to the fans - all should be ignored?

Calling it universal when you have one country going the opposite direction to the rest...

Nothing else need be said about how terribly exaggerated the argument is, here. English football aren't special any more, the sooner that's accepted, the sooner you can get on with finding the actual problems with laws and not just repeating the same veiled complaints about it being different from before.

 

[Nij]

We have no gone down a road where a player is being penalised for accidental handball and people are speaking out. How do you feel about giving a team a penalty that is against the spirit of the game? Too many referees just say "i'm only doing what i am told" is a poor defence.

But no doubt you're happy to penalise an accidental trip when a player slides to try tackling the ball with their foot. Why is this any different?

The spirit of the game is that you don't play the ball with your hands or arms.
Too many players just say "I didn't mean to stop it with my arm!" - having done nothing to prevent it either - and the effect on the match is still the same. It's not a defence at all.

 

[Kent Ref]

But no doubt you're happy to penalise an accidental trip when a player slides to try tackling the ball with their foot. Why is this any different?

The spirit of the game is that you don't play the ball with your hands or arms.
Too many players just say "I didn't mean to stop it with my arm!" - having done nothing to prevent it either - and the effect on the match is still the same. It's not a defence at all.

I am very uncomfortable giving a penalty for something that i consider unintentional. Especially when that decision changes the outcome of a game. For nearly all of my refereeing career, 25+ years, i had my opinion to make sure penalties awarded were fair. Now i do not. Did FIFA consider this when making the changes? No.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Different countries != Different levels.

You go easier on the ones who are there for a run and fun and getting drun(k), you ping even the subtle stuff and adhere to the standards set at that level in the pros.

That's the same regardless of where you are - a pro in England should expect the same decisions as a pro in Germany or Japan or Argentina.

Removal of the word "usually" is a major change! There should be no doubt now that X is handball and Z is not. You can argue whether Y is closer to one or the other, but the number of potential arguments about which decision is correct, is vastly reduced.


Calling it universal when you have one country going the opposite direction to the rest...

Nothing else need be said about how terribly exaggerated the argument is, here. English football aren't special any more, the sooner that's accepted, the sooner you can get on with finding the actual problems with laws and not just repeating the same veiled complaints about it being different from before.

Some fair points in there but two I disagree with most strongly - 'the same veiled complaints'? - Come on, as I said above this is more than a subtle law change that people have to get used to - in this case a flailing arm penalised as handball - that hasn't been the case or anywhere near it until now. The professional game has accepted numerous law changes, not without some complaint, but this one is a but this one is a bit more than 'just getting used to it'

'The number of potential arguments is reduced' really? REALLY? - You can't be serious about that one given what's happened in the first 3 weeks of the season?

 

[PinnerPaul]

But no doubt you're happy to penalise an accidental trip when a player slides to try tackling the ball with their foot. Why is this any different?

The spirit of the game is that you don't play the ball with your hands or arms.
Too many players just say "I didn't mean to stop it with my arm!" - having done nothing to prevent it either - and the effect on the match is still the same. It's not a defence at all.

What on earth could the Tottenham player have done here to 'prevent it' - apart from not challenging for the ball?

You can't base a decision on the 'effect on the match' - you're not saying you base your decisions using that criteria surely?

 

[GraemeS]

Interestingly, what we're not doing is arguing about the referee. For better or worse, the majority of pundits and fans seem to be accepting that the referee made the "correct" decision in law. Which at the very least needs to be noted.