TOT V NEW (not another one)

[Big Cat]

I think it's 'arrogance' in many ways to think this is going to change any time soon. This isn't a new handball interpretation across the world, the Premier League is just late to the party. It was applied in the 2018 World Cup and the 18/19 Champions League for instance so it's been in place for over two years.

Most of 'football' spent the whole of last season saying there needed to be consistency and why was the PL doing things different to the rest of the world? But when it comes ot handball it seems 'We want consistency and common sense' really just means 'we want everyone in the world to do it the way we think it should be done'.

No
Referees elsewhere we're making it up
This is explicitly a HB as of this season
It is not in question that the officials today reached the correct decision (in law only). However, referees outside the UK (and maybe some other countries) have previously been implementing law that was not in the book

 

[onthebrink]

No
Referees elsewhere we're making it up
This is explicitly a HB as of this season
It is not in question that the officials today reached the correct decision (in law only). However, referees outside the UK (and maybe some other countries) have previously been implementing law that was not in the book

As far as I'm aware the wording for handball for this season has been tweaked/clarified rather than changed - words like 'usually' have been removed.

I don't think we're going to see the handball law changed again any time soon.

 

[RustyRef]

Until you said “against an English side” I was thinking the penalty given to Man Utd vs PSG deep in stoppage time season before last.

No, wasn't that one. It was very similar to the Dier one, the ball went over the defender's head and an attacker behind him headed it back onto his arm which was raised in the motion of jumping.

 

[onthebrink]

No, wasn't that one. It was very similar to the Dier one, the ball went over the defender's head and an attacker behind him headed it back onto his arm which was raised in the motion of jumping.

I vaguely remember a few like that at the World Cup - Portugal V Iran etc.

 

[Ben448844]

As far as I'm aware the wording for handball for this season has been tweaked/clarified rather than changed - words like 'usually' have been removed.

I don't think we're going to see the handball law changed again any time soon.

I think there is a possibility of it being changed. The PL has alot of power and they are pretty unified behind the desire to have it changed imo. Along with the fans and the high profile pundits etc. Its quite a powerful lobbying tool.

 

[Big Cat]

I get that this is a referees' forum and it's not in question that this is explicitly a HB offence, but as referees, we're perfectly entitled to emphatically say when something is wrong. This decision is awful for sport, ignorant of fair play and lamentably; typical of football. Nothing else matters
In My Opinion, IFAB, seemingly for whatever commercial motivation, are damaging the elite game, with no consideration of the 'grass roots' game whatsoever. I'm disgusted by (this incident) (and) what's happening with the HB rule; and that's without mentioning the imminent death of On Field Officials (VAR)

 

[JamesL]

No, wasn't that one. It was very similar to the Dier one, the ball went over the defender's head and an attacker behind him headed it back onto his arm which was raised in the motion of jumping.

I'm convinced this involves Newcastle as well but I can't search Newcastle handball anymore due to todays incident

I can picture it, Mike Dean is the referee. Just can't remember the player. But an attacker tried to head it back across goal and the defenders arm was up in the air but he was facing the other way and it struck his arm and a penalty was awarded.

 

[Kent Ref]

A lot of the referees on here says that's a penalty etc but i would like if they morally agree with this type of penalty being given.

 

[Ben448844]

I get that this is a referees' forum and it's not in question that this is explicitly a HB offence, but as referees, we're perfectly entitled to emphatically say when something is wrong. This decision is awful for sport, ignorant of fair play and lamentably; typical of football. Nothing else matters
In My Opinion, IFAB, seemingly for whatever commercial motivation, are damaging the elite game, with no consideration of the 'grass roots' game whatsoever. I'm disgusted by (this incident) (and) what's happening with the HB rule; and that's without mentioning the imminent death of On Field Officials (VAR)

I had my first ever assessment today. Late in the 2nd half I've given a penalty for handball. Arms by the side of the full back as a deep cross comes in, but after the ball goes over the centre backs head hes moved his arm towards the ball (not by much). I wouldn't have given it last year but this year its a penalty. Just doesn't feel right from a football perspective. Maybe we will come to accept the new interpretation and players behaviour in terms of their body shape etc will change? But it feels a long way away at the moment.

 

[Kent Ref]

When it comes to dodgy penalty what about this one between Wolves and Burnley? 2.20 mins in.

The player jumps to head the ball and it accidentally hits him arms as he is in the last part of his jump to head the ball . This law needs amending:

 

[JamesL]

When it comes to dodgy penalty what about this one between Wolves and Burnley? 2.20 mins in.

The player jumps to head the ball and it accidentally hits him arms as he is in the last part of his jump to head the ball . This law needs amending:

Given this involved Hull in a premier league game this would be before the new laws were introduced.

 

[Mr Dean]

Given this involved Hull in a premier league game this would be before the new laws were introduced.

Hull? Time for a lie down me thinks

 

[JamesL]

Hull? Time for a lie down me thinks

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[Big Cat]

I had my first ever assessment today. Late in the 2nd half I've given a penalty for handball. Arms by the side of the full back as a deep cross comes in, but after the ball goes over the centre backs head hes moved his arm towards the ball (not by much). I wouldn't have given it last year but this year its a penalty. Just doesn't feel right from a football perspective. Maybe we will come to accept the new interpretation and players behaviour in terms of their body shape etc will change? But it feels a long way away at the moment.

I gave a HB-PK yesterday when the defender's hand was perfectly by his side. Trouble was, the ball travelled 20-30 yards without bouncing. Still got stick for it. Case in point, it was was his fault... simple as that
Anyway, I'm a Newcastle fan and i'm appalled. Make of that what you will

 

[RustyRef]

I get that this is a referees' forum and it's not in question that this is explicitly a HB offence, but as referees, we're perfectly entitled to emphatically say when something is wrong. This decision is awful for sport, ignorant of fair play and lamentably; typical of football. Nothing else matters
In My Opinion, IFAB, seemingly for whatever commercial motivation, are damaging the elite game, with no consideration of the 'grass roots' game whatsoever. I'm disgusted by (this incident) (and) what's happening with the HB rule; and that's without mentioning the imminent death of On Field Officials (VAR)

In all reality this doesn't really affect the grass roots game. Most of the penalties given for handball that have caused controversy it was almost impossible to detect real time, indeed in the Man U game clearly none of the officials had any idea as the referee blew for full time straight after. Had just one of them seen it they would have been in his ear straight away, including the VAR. The Eric Dier one today was probably the most obvious one seen so far.

Likewise I can't see it being a problem outside of the top divisions, it will really only cause a problem in leagues where VAR is in operation. At all other levels the referee gets only one view at full speed, and unless it is blatant handling they won't be blowing in my opinion. It takes the slowed down replays with VAR to have enough confidence that it even hit the hand, let alone that it ticked the boxes for handling under the new laws.

 

[GraemeS]

Baffled by the idea people are trying to make this into a "moral" decision.

As Souness quite astutely said on today's Sky coverage, we are actually seeing a fairly high degree of consistency on handball now compared to what we're used to, so this law would make perfect sense if it was dropped in from nowhere. The only reason people are having (what I will now sarcastically refer to as) a "moral" issue with it is because it's too different to what they're used to.

The end game as demanded by all the whiny players and pundits was "greater consistency". So far, it's a small sample size, but I think we are undeniably seeing that. It's much easier to complain that something is wrong than it is to actually make a proper improvement.

 

[RustyRef]

Did he make his body unnaturally bigger whilst jumping? Note that Andy Carroll done exactly the same thing too (arms out) when jumping for the ball.
Was the header from Carroll too close that Dier had no chance of avoiding it despite not even looking at it? Not saying Carroll aimed at him, but it is literally impossible for Dier to avoid it.

The handball law, one bit (in bold) confuses me with their wording.

It is an offence if a player:

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
• after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
• if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

Does that mean all above applies if it touches a players hand/arm directly from head or body of another close player (in this case it is a handball against Dier) or is it not an offence based on point 2 for the exceptions which is exactly what happened?

I don't really think it is confusing, certainly not as much as people make out. The line that starts "except for the above offences" clearly means that those above that text preclude any of the bullet points under it. Therefore if the hand / arm has made their body unnaturally bigger, or is above / beyond their shoulder level, none of those final 4 bullet points apply.

There can be no argument whatsoever that Dier's arm made his body unnaturally bigger, and I would also argue that it extended beyond his shoulder level. Under the current laws that has to be handball, even though it was completely accidental. Yes, the law is arguably wrong and there should be campaign for change, but referees can only operate to the current laws that are in operation.

 

[RustyRef]

Baffled by the idea people are trying to make this into a "moral" decision.

As Souness quite astutely said on today's Sky coverage, we are actually seeing a fairly high degree of consistency on handball now compared to what we're used to, so this law would make perfect sense if it was dropped in from nowhere. The only reason people are having (what I will now sarcastically refer to as) a "moral" issue with it is because it's too different to what they're used to.

The end game as demanded by all the whiny players and pundits was "greater consistency". So far, it's a small sample size, but I think we are undeniably seeing that. It's much easier to complain that something is wrong than it is to actually make a proper improvement.

Agree, and two other points on this ...

• It is only in England that people are moaning, this would have been a penalty in most European countries for many seasons
• Mourinho was jumping up and down on the sideline, and many of his players were appealing for a penalty when the ball hit Lascelles, who's arm was actually tucked into his body. You reap what you sow.

 

[JamesL]

Baffled by the idea people are trying to make this into a "moral" decision.

As Souness quite astutely said on today's Sky coverage, we are actually seeing a fairly high degree of consistency on handball now compared to what we're used to, so this law would make perfect sense if it was dropped in from nowhere. The only reason people are having (what I will now sarcastically refer to as) a "moral" issue with it is because it's too different to what they're used to.

The end game as demanded by all the whiny players and pundits was "greater consistency". So far, it's a small sample size, but I think we are undeniably seeing that. It's much easier to complain that something is wrong than it is to actually make a proper improvement.

Might be the first and only time I have agreed with something Souness has said. He is very right. In 5 years that penalty will be a non event

 

[JamesL]

Agree, and two other points on this ...

• It is only in England that people are moaning, this would have been a penalty in most European countries for many seasons
• Mourinho was jumping up and down on the sideline, and many of his players were appealing for a penalty when the ball hit Lascelles, who's arm was actually tucked into his body. You reap what you sow.

The irony is that if it was at the other end he would be saying a sure penalty