A&H

Too many players - YC for coach?

Mr Dean said:
The problematic line in Law 3 is more likely to be

"The substitute only enters:

during a stoppage in play..."
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I actually quoted this line when I asked ;)
The LotG as they are now are quite clear about return subs requiring adherence to the rest of law 3. And any further modifications requiring "permission from IFAB". Good call.

I didn't know what the official response is from my people. I do know that all our local leagues have their own written summary of the competition rules - for 7v7 that might mean no offside, or no goal kicks over half way, or 7 subs in the 4th tier, or 3 2nd half sub events etc etc. All modifications outside the LotG.

Question for the UK people - do kids' 5v5 or 7v7 games in the UK really not use ball in play substitutes ever, nowhere, really?

Question for @one (there can be only one!) - where you are - are there non-approved modifications being used with or without permission from IFAB?

Question for @Peter Grove - return subs was added to the LotG in 2017, right - was there anything about grassroots football and modifications in the LotG before that?

General question, asking for a friend - IFAB can write that you need "permission from IFAB" but do they have the authority or resources to process the grassroots modifications from around the world of thousands of leagues from two hundred associations. Is there really any process in place, has any FA ever asked for permission from IFAB to create modified competition "rules"?
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..I'm wondering in the end if the "modifications" section of the LotG is really enforceable or enforced or if it is perhaps some erm warmer air!
 
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santa sangria said:
Question for @one (there can be only one!) - where you are - are there non-approved modifications being used with or without permission from IFAB?
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Returned substitutes have been around since I remember from long before being allowed by lotg. The other big one is added time are only allowed under certain circumstances (less than one in 10 games). A few other age related ones like no slide tackles in over 35s are common across the country. Most associations (equivalent of counties) have their own specific ones. Some allow flat wedding rings for example. Another common one is no yellow card is shown for sin bin.

These are at grassroots and I don't think any of them are sanctioned by IFAB or even by the national FA in some cases. It's easy to turn a blind eye to it as long as it's at grassroots only and not a major change. They are generally there to increase participation or facilitate administration. In turn they generate revenue at all levels through rego fees. A different topic but down here the game is mostly funded bottom up.

Oh and according to players and some referees, you can't say "mine" or "leave it" 😉
 
one said:
Returned substitutes have been around since I remember from long before being allowed by lotg. The other big one is added time are only allowed under certain circumstances (less than one in 10 games). A few other age related ones like no slide tackles in over 35s are common across the country. Most associations (equivalent of counties) have their own specific ones. Some allow flat wedding rings for example. Another common one is no yellow card is shown for sin bin.

These are at grassroots and I don't think any of them are sanctioned by IFAB or even by the national FA in some cases. It's easy to turn a blind eye to it as long as it's at grassroots only and not a major change. They are generally there to increase participation or facilitate administration. In turn they generate revenue at all levels through rego fees. A different topic but down here the game is mostly funded bottom up.

Oh and according to players and some referees, you can't say "mine" or "leave it" 😉
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You just summed up Australia there!
I now remember a referee when I was playing U14s refusing to allow some of us to play unless our shirts were tucked in.
"You're playing soccer, not netball."
 
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WiisardNic said:
You just summed up Australia there!
I now remember a referee when I was playing U14s refusing to allow some of us to play unless our shirts were tucked in.
"You're playing soccer, not netball."
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I can just about guarantee he was an old timer. Some of us old farts at grassroots care more about "back in my days" than facilitating a game that encourages participation.
 
WiisardNic said:
You just summed up Australia there!
I now remember a referee when I was playing U14s refusing to allow some of us to play unless our shirts were tucked in.
"You're playing soccer, not netball."
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Remember something similar in UK. Can't remember if it was the referee though.
 
JamesL said:
Remember something similar in UK. Can't remember if it was the referee though.
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May have been something to do with fouls. The phrase is used by referees or players. A tackle absolutely clatters an opponent when a foul is given the player complains with this phrase. Referees use it to justify not giving a foul on hard tackles which is normal footballing contact.
 
one said:
I can just about guarantee he was an old timer. Some of us old farts at grassroots care more about "back in my days" than facilitating a game that encourages participation.
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Was absolutely an old timer. More hair on the knees than his head and shorts like undies.
I find Australian old timer referees particularly fickle and stubborn.
One of my favourite instances was my school (in rural NSW) hosted a Sydney team in some cup competition (not Bill Turner, it was for the All-Age team), and this was a season where my association was cracking down on "goalkeepers releasing the ball" and mandated that a goalkeeper bouncing the ball, is considered releasing it and regathering, and would be awarding IDFKs. Obviously, the team from Sydney never heard of this, so were quite shocked when the first time the keeper got called into action resulted in an IDFK on the corner of the 6yd box...
 
Peter Grove said:
Just to go back to the original question (can you caution a coach when there's an extra player on the field who cannot be identified) I put the question to the IFAB and their answer was as follows:

View attachment 6826
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Tha
Peter Grove said:
Just to go back to the original question (can you caution a coach when there's an extra player on the field who cannot be identified) I put the question to the IFAB and their answer was as follows:

View attachment 6826
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Thanks Peter.
 
santa sangria said:
Away are down to ten after an early DOGSO-R. AR1 is enthusiastic but, let’s say a bit “creative”. Decisions have been going well. Communication between me and the ARs fine… until…

(And it’s flying/return subs… play does not have to be stopped… typically we are pretty forgiving - not pernicious - with subs coming and going if there’s no attempt to cheat…)

There’s a home throw close to the benches, nearly all players are close to the benches, I follow play down the line. AR1 flags an away offence. I stop the match. He tells me too many players were on the field. I ask him who am I carding? He doesn’t know. I have no idea and the correct number of players are on now so it cannot have been for long!

So, what are my options here? What would you do?

No one wanted to confess. I chose to continue the match.

After the match my AR said he wanted me to YC the coach. I said I cannot give him YC for entering the FoP! He didn’t. So, in theory, I could have asked the coach and YC’d if he did not tell me, really? I don’t want to escalate here. And the law about sanctioning the coach if a player cannot be identified applies to verbal offences (surely?).

I think AR1 should have given a verbal warning (common here) instead.

(I know the return subs with ball in play is a tough one to procesd for our UK readers but it is totally normal here across grassroots just like futsal.)
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This is just a perfect example of why it should not be left to random league chairmen to screw around with the LotG. The competition rules should say what the penalty for this is, but probably don't.
 
RyantheRef said:
This is just a perfect example of why it should not be left to random league chairmen to screw around with the LotG. The competition rules should say what the penalty for this is, but probably don't.
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Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Which random league chairmen are you alluding to?

Also, why should the local rules of competition need to make provision for this when return substitutions (and having extra players on the field) are part of the Laws?
 
Peter Grove said:
Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Which random league chairmen are you alluding to?

Also, why should the local rules of competition need to make provision for this when return substitutions (and having extra players on the field) are part of the Laws?
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I think he is referring to the crazy rule that appears to be in operation in @santa sangria 's league where by substitutions are allowed to happen in contravention of the substitution procedure and why this shouldn't be left to competitions as this is what the outcome are when they do meddle.
 
Or certainly, if they are going to excessively meddle, they need to think through the consequences of what could happen if it goes wrong and how referees should deal with it.

The answer to Santas question should be in the following paragraph of the document that allows this modification. And if it's not, it's on the league to answer any complaints if the referee has to make an in-the-moment call and gets it "wrong".
 
Peter Grove said:
Also, why should the local rules of competition need to make provision for this when return substitutions (and having extra players on the field) are part of the Laws?
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Sure they are. But substitutions "on the fly" are not provided for in the Laws. And, as I attempted to say earlier and as James and Graeme have clarified for me, there's a very good chance that the framers of the competition rules, herein personified as "some random league Chairman" didn't make due consideration of what could go wrong and how it should be remedied with this derivation from the Laws.
 
Dear Sisters and brothers.

In the country I am in, below the 5th tier, and in all hobby leagues, return substitutions on the fly are perfectly normal.

The competition rules are set by the national regional football associations. (Not league chairs).

The issue in this thread was caused by an idiot AR who acted without thinking, failed to communicate proactively with the benches, asked the referee to create a yellow card offence etc. (bonus, after the match, said AR also told the referee he had verbally warned a sub for a red card offence! Thanks pal. Basically the AR thought he was amazing and he was sh***).

Return subs in the fly are perfectly normal here, in a culture that plays as much ice hockey, street hockey and nearly as much futsal - as football. The “procedure” is amazingly hassle free - and has been in place for years in a culture that wants/needs to encourage participation.

I have asked my people if there has ever been “approval from IFAB” for this modification as stated in the LotG - I doubt it and reckon that this procedure has been used for a lot longer than the line has been in the LotG - @Peter Grove do you know when it was introduced?

(As said earlier I imagine that in 200 countries and 40000 leagues around the world, I am 100% sure IFAB has no process in place to log or track modifications/requests/notifications- but I am ready for the news!)
 
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