RefSix

There's no VAR in quadruple.

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one

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#41
@one fyi

Check out @Atishay_Agarwal’s Tweet:
Definitely hits the arm, still think it's a goal mind
Fair enough and agree nothing deliberate about it.

Maybe OT but IMO disallowing this goal even next year is unfair. There is nothing he could have done about it. Just because it very accidentally touched an attacker's arm the goal will be disallowed. This is no better than disallowing own goals. It's part of football.

A defender's arm accidentally stopping a goal (or causing a save) is not an offence. Why should an attacker's arm accidentally scoring a goal (or leading to it).
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#42
I disagree. I think it was @JamesL who made the excellent point in another post that teams like Liverpool/City etc create chance after chance in every game they play and probability dictates that the referee/AR will miss something in that time. Whereas your smaller clubs who create 1/2 big chances in a match against the top clubs might get caught out being offside or diving in their small amount of chances, thus giving the perception of bias when that really isn't the case. It's the probability of human error.
Whilst this may be a factor, I see it as only a small contributor. The ramifications of incorrect decisions against top teams, are far greater than those against the Cardiffs of the world. There is no way Pep or Klopp will ever get the same treatment as that dished out to our friend Warnock of late. Jeez, can we imagine Sir Alex on the receiving end of this in his heyday? Like I say, unconscious bias effects us all and is complicated and impossible to measure, but it's a very real factor for match officials under intense scrutiny
 

Big Cat

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#43
Fair enough and agree nothing deliberate about it.

Maybe OT but IMO disallowing this goal even next year is unfair. There is nothing he could have done about it. Just because it very accidentally touched an attacker's arm the goal will be disallowed. This is no better than disallowing own goals. It's part of football.

A defender's arm accidentally stopping a goal (or causing a save) is not an offence. Why should an attacker's arm accidentally scoring a goal (or leading to it).
• The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
• the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
 

one

RefChat Addict
#44
• The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
• the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
That is the point I am making. Why punish the attackers for something you don't punish defenders for in a reverse situation?
 
#45
That is the point I am making. Why punish the attackers for something you don't punish defenders for in a reverse situation?
Because IFAB, in its infinite wisdom, thinks that is what soccer wants. Shrug.

IMO, VAR is not a unique issue, but consistent with IFABs past several years (and apologies if I'm a broken record on this*)--IFAB has consistently been moving away from Laws based on general principals that have long governed the game to Laws designed to dictate minutia. From spirit to precision. I'm not a fan, but its what soccer is today.

_____
*Younguns can ask their parents what that means . . .
 
#46
Whilst this may be a factor, I see it as only a small contributor. The ramifications of incorrect decisions against top teams, are far greater than those against the Cardiffs of the world. There is no way Pep or Klopp will ever get the same treatment as that dished out to our friend Warnock of late. Jeez, can we imagine Sir Alex on the receiving end of this in his heyday? Like I say, unconscious bias effects us all and is complicated and impossible to measure, but it's a very real factor for match officials under intense scrutiny
In the US, thee was a study in the NBA of referees, race, and players. I don't recall the details, but the statistical analysis indicated that referees, in general, referees made calls in favor of those like them racially. Roughly, a crew of white refs was more likely to call fouls on black players and a crew of black refs was more likely to call fouls on white players. Interestingly, after this came out and led to discussion, a study replicating in on later years found no such affect--suggesting that once the issue was recognized, referees overcame that intrinsic bias. (I have no idea of the statistical significance etc. of the studies.)

As an aside, Micheal Lewis (author of Money Ball and Liar's Poker) has a new podcast called Against the Rules. The first episode (called "Ref You Suck!") is focused on referees, particularly the NBA and its video review room. Obviously not soccer, but might be of interest to some here. (The podcast refers to the study I mentioned above.)
 

bloovee

RefChat Addict
#47
You want the right decisions at the end of the day. It was fair tonight. I don’t think it will be fair on a consistent basis next season. Some officials will see what they want.
Like the third Spurs goal? Why was that not disallowed? Ref indicated it came off the thigh.
Given that UEFA officials are already applying Laws which are not in effect yet, I expected this goal to be chalked off
This exact replay was broadcast to viewers whilst we waited for the officials to take up centre stage
Given that the referee wasn't shown any angle that showed the handball, we'll never know.

After the last round where the replay for the match ref wasn't working, and now someone deciding not to show the ref the handball for him to decide if it was deliberate, you'll have to excuse us if we carry on booing the UEFA anthem. (I could explain how that started but it would be a distraction.)
 
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GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#48
Like the third Spurs goal? Why was that not disallowed? Ref indicated it cane off Ll
Given that the referee wasn't shown any angle that showed the handball, we'll never know.

After the last round where the replay for the match ref wasn't working, and now someone deciding not to show the ref the handball for him to decide if it was deliberate, you'll have to excuse us if we carry on booing the UEFA anthem. (I could explain how that started but it would be a distraction.)
You're going down a long and lonely blind alley here - that was never a handball, so trying to suggest some giant conspiracy regarding a decision that would never have been given regardless seems a bit pointless to me?
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#49
Like the third Spurs goal? Why was that not disallowed? Ref indicated it cane off Ll
Given that the referee wasn't shown any angle that showed the handball, we'll never know.

After the last round where the replay for the match ref wasn't working, and now someone deciding not to show the ref the handball for him to decide if it was deliberate, you'll have to excuse us if we carry on booing the UEFA anthem. (I could explain how that started but it would be a distraction.)
Why was it not given? Because the LOTG were correctly applied
 

alexgr

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#50
Next year that’s a handball, it’s not this year. What is worrying is that the ref indicated it came off his hip, when it clearly strikes his hand, regardless of any interpretation of whether or not that constitutes handball
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#51
Like the third Spurs goal? Why was that not disallowed? Ref indicated it cane off Ll
Given that the referee wasn't shown any angle that showed the handball, we'll never know.

After the last round where the replay for the match ref wasn't working, and now someone deciding not to show the ref the handball for him to decide if it was deliberate, you'll have to excuse us if we carry on booing the UEFA anthem. (I could explain how that started but it would be a distraction.)
I'm as pissed off with the result as the next blue, but VAR got the big decisions right

You do raise a good point though, if the ref wasn't shown the angle which clearly shows the handball and made his decision without it, then questions need to be asked why not. That said, I'd wager he would still havecome to the same conclusion
 
#53
Like the third Spurs goal? Why was that not disallowed? Ref indicated it cane off Ll
Given that the referee wasn't shown any angle that showed the handball, we'll never know.
It wasn’t disallowed because it was never a handball. No movement of the arm towards the ball, in a natural position, was tucked in as much as possible- so no chance of ref applying the ‘silhouette’ reasoning. It’s never a handball in a million years. I’m confident the ref would’ve came to the same conclusion. VAR should’ve confirmed goal as per the refs initial decision, he shouldn’t have had to have seen it.

Some saying it’ll be disallowed next season. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that only in the event it comes off a players arm/hand and goes directly into the goal? Last night the ball brushed his elbow onto his hip/thigh.

It’ll be criminal to start ruling them out. IFAB might as well just say if it hits the arm/hand it’s a FK/PK, in all circumstances.
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#54
It wasn’t disallowed because it was never a handball. No movement of the arm towards the ball, in a natural position, was tucked in as much as possible- so no chance of ref applying the ‘silhouette’ reasoning. It’s never a handball in a million years. I’m confident the ref would’ve came to the same conclusion. VAR should’ve confirmed goal as per the refs initial decision, he shouldn’t have had to have seen it.

Some saying it’ll be disallowed next season. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that only in the event it comes off a players arm/hand and goes directly into the goal? Last night the ball brushed his elbow onto his hip/thigh.

It’ll be criminal to start ruling them out. IFAB might as well just say if it hits the arm/hand it’s a FK/PK, in all circumstances.
I think it definitely gets disallowed next season, looking at the wording of the law.

They want to prevent both goals and assists using an arm whether intentional or not
 
#55
Some saying it’ll be disallowed next season. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that only in the event it comes off a players arm/hand and goes directly into the goal? Last night the ball brushed his elbow onto his hip/thigh.
Once again, we have to guess what IFAB really means. Directly is used in different ways in the Laws. I think the most reasonable reading of "directly" here is "without a subsequent deliberate play by any player." But I think there will be various interpretations until IFAB says what it means.
 

bloovee

RefChat Addict
#56
You're going down a long and lonely blind alley here - that was never a handball, so trying to suggest some giant conspiracy regarding a decision that would never have been given regardless seems a bit pointless to me?
Financial Fair Play is a conspiracy by clubs in debt to keep new entrants from the market.
 

QuaverRef

I used to be indecisive but now i'm not so sure
#57
Obviously the referee wasn’t shown it because the angle wasn’t available. It’s not that complex to work out. Maybe they’ll take note and stick more cameras in but clearly this isn’t footage supplied by UEFA, more likely to be media footage
 

es1

RefChat Addict
#58
Not having every available angle makes a mockery of having VAR. If this was next season and the goal had been allowed because the ref did my have the right angle available there'd, quite rightly, be uproar.

VAR is nothing without suitable technology. Got to get it sorted
 

bloovee

RefChat Addict
#59
It wasn’t disallowed because it was never a handball. No movement of the arm towards the ball, in a natural position, was tucked in as much as possible- so no chance of ref applying the ‘silhouette’ reasoning. It’s never a handball in a million years. I’m confident the ref would’ve came to the same conclusion. VAR should’ve confirmed goal as per the refs initial decision, he shouldn’t have had to have seen it.

Some saying it’ll be disallowed next season. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that only in the event it comes off a players arm/hand and goes directly into the goal? Last night the ball brushed his elbow onto his hip/thigh.

It’ll be criminal to start ruling them out. IFAB might as well just say if it hits the arm/hand it’s a FK/PK, in all circumstances.
So VAR thinks the ball hit Llorente's hand so asks the ref to check it then doesn't show the angle that shows it hitting the hand, so is asking him to judge whether a handball he can't see is deliberate or not.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#60
Obviously the referee wasn’t shown it because the angle wasn’t available. It’s not that complex to work out. Maybe they’ll take note and stick more cameras in but clearly this isn’t footage supplied by UEFA, more likely to be media footage
The angle was shown on Live TV however!!! If the ref sees the angle, he disallows it because they're already on next year's Laws
 
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