The Ref Stop

Taking dissent YC for the team?

S

Scottybee

Member
Level 7 Referee
Had a situation this morning where U18s Oranges didn’t like a foul I gave against them, three Oranges stood behind me when one of them proclaims “they’re playing with 12 men” I turn round and say to their captain (one of the three) who said that? He denies saying anything and by this time the other two have disappeared, I asked him who said it and he said he didn’t know.

I’m not prepared to let them get away with effectively call me a cheat so I stick a dissent YC bin on him, he gets a bit upset and calls me a Pri#k so off he goes with a Red also.

Now honestly I don’t know who said it but the Captain had been putting himself about and been a pain from the KO and his next foul would have earned him a YC for PI, I’m pretty sure I’m wrong in law but what would you have done?

If I was 100% sure who had said it I would prob have dished out a straight red Offinabus but I opted for him having to “take it for the team” 🤔
 
The Ref Stop
I wouldn't have booked anyone based on what you have described. If you can't identify the offender, you shouldn't caution or dismiss anyone IMO.
Just because he has been a pain from the ko, doesn't mean he should be blamed for something he may not have actually done.
 
Scottybee said:
I’m pretty sure I’m wrong in law but what would you have done?
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Personally, I'd have just dressed down the captain and said 'that kind of talk is not on and if any of your players are daft enough to say that at me going forward and I identify who does it I'll be dismissing them."
 
You can't caution someone for dissent if you don't know who said it. It almost seems that you have got mixed up with the new law that the senior coaching staff member is held responsible if you can't identify the offender, but that doesn't apply to on-field offences.
 
Not mixed up as I’m clear on that, more a feeling of he had it coming, I do have some sympathy for him but one of them said it
 
Scottybee said:
Not mixed up as I’m clear on that, more a feeling of he had it coming, I do have some sympathy for him but one of them said it
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Exactly. ONE of them said it. But you have picked out this player out of the three based purely on his attitude during the game. That is wrong, totally wrong. To say he had it coming is also a poor phrase to use in order to justify this caution
 
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Players have a major responsibility for the image of the game and the team
captain should play an important role in helping to ensure that the Laws and
referees’ decisions are respected.
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The team captain has no special status or privileges but has a degree of
responsibility for the behaviour of the team.
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I might well have done the same as you, except for cautioning for unsporting behaviour rather than sin binning the player.
 
You cannot caution the captain for what you heard said since you do not know who said it. You can, however, caution the captain for dissent for refusing to identify the player who said it when asked. It would be the same if you asked a player to come to you to have a chat and he refuses. This is dissent by action and is a cautionable offense.

At the same time, this is a sure fire way to put yourself into a hole (which is exactly what happened) where you have to remove a player. In the future, I might try to publicly rebuke the captain for the behaviour of his team and remind him, audibly, that offensive, insulting and abusive language is a sending off offense and does not require the use of profanity. This should get across the message that future actions or comments along these lines will result in punishment.
 
CanuckRef said:
You cannot caution the captain for what you heard said since you do not know who said it. You can, however, caution the captain for dissent for refusing to identify the player who said it when asked. It would be the same if you asked a player to come to you to have a chat and he refuses. This is dissent by action and is a cautionable offense.
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Which is fine until the captain says he doesn't know who said it. There's no dissent there as he has answered your question.
 
RustyRef said:
Which is fine until the captain says he doesn't know who said it. There's no dissent there as he has answered your question.
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Yes and, as I said, it is not the recommended path here. The recommended path is to loudly rebuke the captain and make sure he knows that OFFINABUS is a sending-off offense and does not require any swearing.
 
Jack M, I think it’s you who are Wrong in assuming I chose the captain to take the caution only “based purely on his attitude in the game” I chose him mainly BECAUSE he was the captain and he’d told me several times prior to the incident that he was the Captain and as such had responsibility for his team and had an entitlement to talk to me about decisions made in the game. I gave him the chance to identify the offender but he didn’t take it.

Seems he wanted the responsibility when it suited him and not when it didn’t.

I also don’t see the issue with the “he had it coming” phrase, can’t be many Refs who have not had this thought about a player who’s gone on to receive what they deserve.
 
So what you're saying is, that because he is the captain he should receive the punishment when you can't identify who did it? That doesn't seem fair.

You said that you gave him the chance to identify the offender and he refused. Is it not possible that he really didn't know who did it and therefore couldn't give you the culprit? Or did you just pin the blame on him because he was captain?
 
CanuckRef said:
You cannot caution the captain for what you heard said since you do not know who said it. You can, however, caution the captain for dissent for refusing to identify the player who said it when asked. It would be the same if you asked a player to come to you to have a chat and he refuses. This is dissent by action and is a cautionable offense.
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What if he doesn't know who it was? What is he meant to do other than say 'I don't know'?
 
Yes it’s possible he didn’t know but I don’t believe that was the case in this particular situation
 
Scottybee said:
I can and I did

But always open to learning so may handle it differently next time
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I appreciate your willingness to improve. But can you tell me, in law, how you justify the caution to the captain given the fact he may not have actually been able to tell you who did it?

I too am looking to improve all the time
 
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Hi all could I ask whether a sin bin caution is appropriate for players in the same team dissenting each other? Sorry know this is a strange one but happened to me a couple of times this morning and wasn’t sure?
 
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