The Ref Stop

Sunderland v Everton

Donate to RefChat

Help keep RefChat running, any donation would be appreciated

P

Paul_10

RefChat Addict
I'm all for having a threshold for handball but Sunderland really should of had a penalty for handball against Keane, the hands well away from the body, looks unnatural too me, should be at least reviewed but perhaps Salisbury being cautious after what happened last time he was on VAR.


Incident around 2:30 mark.
 
The Ref Stop
Not for me, he was turning and twisting around and his arm came out. In a UEFA game that gets given every time, but PGMOL have been very clear it needs to be deliberate handling. Certainly no way it would meet the threshold for VAR to recommend a review.

I much prefer this approach with hardly any penalties being given for handball in England now. Previously games were being decided by completely accidental handling, I don't like clubs being able to influence how games are refereed but in this case I think they have got it spot on. There's just been a penalty in the Slavia Prague vs Arsenal game that 100% would not be given in the EPL, the referee barely even looked at the screen, he saw one frame showing it hitting the hand then turned round and gave the penalty. No one saw it real time at all and it was very much a case of re-refereeing the game in my opinion.
 
This actually hits his left arm first which is not extended much, and does not appear definitive whether it goes on to hit his right arm. Don't think VAR would intervene whether penalised or not, and I think it would be harsh to penalise given the overall body movement.
1762288987829.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: ARF
RustyRef said:
Not for me, he was turning and twisting around and his arm came out. In a UEFA game that gets given every time, but PGMOL have been very clear it needs to be deliberate handling. Certainly no way it would meet the threshold for VAR to recommend a review.

I much prefer this approach with hardly any penalties being given for handball in England now. Previously games were being decided by completely accidental handling, I don't like clubs being able to influence how games are refereed but in this case I think they have got it spot on. There's just been a penalty in the Slavia Prague vs Arsenal game that 100% would not be given in the EPL, the referee barely even looked at the screen, he saw one frame showing it hitting the hand then turned round and gave the penalty. No one saw it real time at all and it was very much a case of re-refereeing the game in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Well that is not true at all as they take into account unnatural position aswell.

For me the hand is too far out therefore he is making himself unnaturally bigger. Plus the defender was half turning his back so has less control of where his arms are.

I believe pre VAR this would get given as a penalty and I actually don't think many non referees would complain about it.
 
Paul_10 said:
Well that is not true at all as they take into account unnatural position aswell.
Click to expand...
Common misconception, and possibly semantics, but they are not looking for an unnatural position but making the body unnaturally bigger. Lost count of how many times I stress this point but there are plenty unnatural positions, such as running around with hands behind back that would not be penalised as they don't make the body unnaturally bigger, despite being unnaturally positioned.
Paul_10 said:
For me the hand is too far out therefore he is making himself unnaturally bigger. Plus the defender was half turning his back so has less control of where his arms are.
Click to expand...
Focus is being pushed more away from just position and more towards the action and if the arm position is consistent with that.
 
Paul_10 said:
Well that is not true at all as they take into account unnatural position aswell.

For me the hand is too far out therefore he is making himself unnaturally bigger. Plus the defender was half turning his back so has less control of where his arms are.

I believe pre VAR this would get given as a penalty and I actually don't think many non referees would complain about it.
Click to expand...
They take into account what the law lets them take into account, and that is whether the position of their arm was supportable by the player's body movement for that specific situation. If you are moving in one direction and then spin round the other way your arm will extend out from the body. You've almost answered it yourself in saying "the defender was half turning his back so has less control of where his arms are", if he has limited control of where his arms are does that not make the position of them justifiable?
 
RustyRef said:
They take into account what the law lets them take into account, and that is whether the position of their arm was supportable by the player's body movement for that specific situation. If you are moving in one direction and then spin round the other way your arm will extend out from the body. You've almost answered it yourself in saying "the defender was half turning his back so has less control of where his arms are", if he has limited control of where his arms are does that not make the position of them justifiable?
Click to expand...

That's a fair question but the reason his arms may become like that was because he was turning his back half hearted but the hand the ball struck was still a good distance away from the body. I would prefer too see something like that as a handball personally otherwise defenders can just defend with their arms out wide making themselves bigger but they got the get out clause that it's natural defending.

As I stated I much prefer the PL interpretation over UEFA/Europe but I think it can sometimes go too far the other way and speaking as just a fan, I think most supporters accept a pen being given if an arm is away from the body and there is distance between striker and defender.
 
Paul_10 said:
the hand the ball struck was still a good distance away from the body.
Click to expand...
It wasn't particularly, see my screenshot above.

Paul_10 said:
otherwise defenders can just defend with their arms out wide making themselves bigger but they got the get out clause that it's natural defending.
Click to expand...
No they can't. If a defender's arm position makes their body unnaturally bigger and is not due to the overall body movement then it is handball.
 
CaptainsPlease said:
It wasn't particularly, see my screenshot above.


No they can't. If a defender's arm position makes their body unnaturally bigger and is not due to the overall body movement then it is handball.
Click to expand...

And how do you judge that, we always get told defenders need their arms out for balance etc, how far is too far out?

I think the screenshot creates an illusion that it may not look too far out(and the ball hit the right hand) but for me the action he was doing, it looked far enough away from the body going by the TV replays. I honestly believe that type of handball if given as a pen would of created very little controversy, it's a type of handball offense most fans would accept.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top