Spurs vs Chelsea

[RustyRef]

You are welcome to that help, a clearly incorrect call !

Where would you expect to be as referee? Hopefully in a place, and angle, to be able to call this one.

both incorrect pks were quick breaks. Sadly, freeze the frame at the point of contact in both incidents. You will notice something/someone, missing from your still.

the referee.

none of the three incidents last night were difficult. Each and every person reading this would be distraught to give two pks wrongly in game, with or without ars.

The AR will almost always have the best view for judging in or out on the edge of the area, just as the referee will for in or out on the sides of the area. That's just down to depth perception, it is much easier to see where something happens if you are looking at it side on rather than front or back on.

Where I would want to be depends on what has happened. I'm still a very fit referee that can comfortably pass the fitness test, but equally I am sensible enough to know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with elite EPL footballers on a fast break, and very few referees would be able to. As you get older reading the flow of the game almost becomes more important than speed as it lets you get into the right positions, and that is something that Andre Marriner has always been very good at. He isn't catching a fast break though, and really hasn't ever been able to.

 

[GraemeS]

The AR will almost always have the best view for judging in or out on the edge of the area, just as the referee will for in or out on the sides of the area. That's just down to depth perception, it is much easier to see where something happens if you are looking at it side on rather than front or back on.

Where I would want to be depends on what has happened. I'm still a very fit referee that can comfortably pass the fitness test, but equally I am sensible enough to know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with elite EPL footballers on a fast break, and very few referees would be able to. As you get older reading the flow of the game almost becomes more important than speed as it lets you get into the right positions, and that is something that Andre Marriner has always been very good at. He isn't catching a fast break though, and really hasn't ever been able to.

Exactly. Any ref who tries to do everything will end up doing nothing well. When you have neutral assistants who are in the perfect position to judge in/out of the area, prioritising that could easily leave you in a worse position for trying to judge if it's actually a foul or not, which should be your the main thing you are focused on.

 

[Anubis]

The AR will almost always have the best view for judging in or out on the edge of the area, just as the referee will for in or out on the sides of the area. That's just down to depth perception, it is much easier to see where something happens if you are looking at it side on rather than front or back on.

Where I would want to be depends on what has happened. I'm still a very fit referee that can comfortably pass the fitness test, but equally I am sensible enough to know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with elite EPL footballers on a fast break, and very few referees would be able to. As you get older reading the flow of the game almost becomes more important than speed as it lets you get into the right positions, and that is something that Andre Marriner has always been very good at. He isn't catching a fast break though, and really hasn't ever been able to.

He. the ref, was nowhere to be seen whilst making two huge calls.

am not going to take screenshots but i already know without doing so, he is nowhere within shot to br calling either pk

All the best reading of the game is great, but not when you incorrectly sward two pks,

As said before, he is a very good referee, million miles above anything i could hope to be.

black and white facts tho, proven last night, he cannot keep up with the pace of the game. Which, you can get away with, if you are still making correct calls.

however, when you are getting them wrong..........

You cant conpare yourself to a sg1 referee, its not your highly paid employment to be fit, I would guess if it was, regardless of age, you would be able to keep up.
We all get caught on a quick break, for us, it causes us to guess a corner/goal kick in front of 2 men and their dog.
Not quite so sure being unable to keep up with play should be ok in elite competition. Not twice, in the same game, resulting in hugely obvious incorrect calls

 

[PinnerPaul]

He. the ref, was nowhere to be seen whilst making two huge calls.

am not going to take screenshots but i already know without doing so, he is nowhere within shot to br calling either pk

All the best reading of the game is great, but not when you incorrectly sward two pks,

As said before, he is a very good referee, million miles above anything i could hope to be.

black and white facts tho, proven last night, he cannot keep up with the pace of the game. Which, you can get away with, if you are still making correct calls.

however, when you are getting them wrong..........

You cant conpare yourself to a sg1 referee, its not your highly paid employment to be fit, I would guess if it was, regardless of age, you would be able to keep up.
We all get caught on a quick break, for us, it causes us to guess a corner/goal kick in front of 2 men and their dog.
Not quite so sure being unable to keep up with play should be ok in elite competition. Not twice, in the same game, resulting in hugely obvious incorrect calls

I sort of agree but just have a (minor) issue with the terminology.

As Rusty said, referees are not 20 something highly paid super fit athletes, so to say they should be able to 'keep up with play' is a bit of a misnomer - 'reach a position to make a credible decision' I would prefer.

I HATE people shouting at me "Keep up with play lino", even at my humble level, when I know I could give the guy shouting it 20 years and still beat him over a sprint, AFTER the match!

 

[Anubis]

I sort of agree but just have a (minor) issue with the terminology.

As Rusty said, referees are not 20 something highly paid super fit athletes, so to say they should be able to 'keep up with play' is a bit of a misnomer - 'reach a position to make a credible decision' I would prefer.

I HATE people shouting at me "Keep up with play lino", even at my humble level, when I know I could give the guy shouting it 20 years and still beat him over a sprint, AFTER the match!

100%.

my point ( maybe as per my wording is not great) is substituting some pace for reading the play is ideal.....

if you get the decisions rightt.

 

[RustyRef]

I sort of agree but just have a (minor) issue with the terminology.

As Rusty said, referees are not 20 something highly paid super fit athletes, so to say they should be able to 'keep up with play' is a bit of a misnomer - 'reach a position to make a credible decision' I would prefer.

I HATE people shouting at me "Keep up with play lino", even at my humble level, when I know I could give the guy shouting it 20 years and still beat him over a sprint, AFTER the match!

Indeed. No 51 year old man is able to run at the same speed as an elite level professional footballer, it just isn't physically possible. Andre Marriner can and does pass the EPL fitness test every year, which includes sprinting, so therefore is deemed fit enough to officiate EPL games.

 

[Mooseybaby]

Not being au fait with the mechanics at the highest levels, will having 3 decisions overturned by VAR go against Andre Marriner and his team?

 

[RustyRef]

Not being au fait with the mechanics at the highest levels, will having 3 decisions overturned by VAR go against Andre Marriner and his team?

Yes, he will get two incorrect KMIs for the penalties, and the assistant will get one for the offside. Guess the assistant could also be clobbered if he had input into the two incorrect penalties. VAR correcting it doesn't remove the incorrect KMIs.

 

[socal lurker]

I know in some assessment models, the R gets positive credit for fixing the KMI once flagged by VAR, so it nets out to less of a ding (but still a ding) than if it went uncorrected. I don't know if that is the case for the PL.

 

[DJIC]

Interesting I watched 15 minutes on Sky’s new service on a VR headset. It basically allows you to watch the game up in the top of the stands. You see the whole pitch not the to picture we are used to. I was shocked that ref Mariner was so central, his movement was barely out of the centre circle. I hate to criticise an elder referee (being one myself) but a SG1 official cannot get away with this level of fitness, or carrying an injury? You don’t need to keep up with elite athletes but you must use movement to create angles.

 

[Big Cat]

Why? The AR has almost certainly got a better view as to whether it is inside or out than the referee as he is looking right across the line. I would absolutely want help from my AR here, especially with comms when it can be done discreetly.

It seemed to me like the AR gave the PK. He didn't merely decide In/Out. Looked that way to me. Stand to be corrected
Andre simply did what we'd all do with such a +ve signal... give the PK on the basis that he has placed faith in his AR in such cirumstances
Also, the AR had a better side-on view. I'd back my AR in such circumstances
Vicinity, better view than 'me'... and so on. Even if i thought he might be wrong, I'd have to back him on these basis. It's his mistake, but so be it

 

[Paul_10]

It seemed to me like the AR gave the PK. He didn't merely decide In/Out. Looked that way to me. Stand to be corrected
Andre simply did what we'd all do with such a +ve signal... give the PK on the basis that he has placed faith in his AR in such cirumstances
Also, the AR had a better side-on view. I'd back my AR in such circumstances
Vicinity, better view than 'me'... and so on. Even if i thought he might be wrong, I'd have to back him on these basis. It's his mistake, but so be it

Correct me if I'm wrong but on the first pen, the assistant flagged for the foul but pointed it towards the way the attacking team was shooting so was signalling a free kick whereas if its a pen, they put the flag across their chest? Has that changed or something?

 

[cwyeary]

Interesting I watched 15 minutes on Sky’s new service on a VR headset. It basically allows you to watch the game up in the top of the stands. You see the whole pitch not the to picture we are used to. I was shocked that ref Mariner was so central, his movement was barely out of the centre circle. I hate to criticise an elder referee (being one myself) but a SG1 official cannot get away with this level of fitness, or carrying an injury? You don’t need to keep up with elite athletes but you must use movement to create angles.

He looked like he was struggling going to the monitor when var sent him over.

 

[Peter Grove]

Correct me if I'm wrong but on the first pen, the assistant flagged for the foul but pointed it towards the way the attacking team was shooting so was signalling a free kick whereas if its a pen, they put the flag across their chest? Has that changed or something?

As far as I recall, putting the flag across the chest to signal a penalty was never an official signal, just a convention that used to be in common use.

According to the current instructions contained in the LotG document, the procedure now (so long as the AR judges that the referee has not seen the incident) is that :

the AR must signal with the flag, use the electronic beep signal and then visibly move down the touchline towards the corner flag.

This has been the official procedure since at least 2007 (and probably earlier though I don't have the official documentation to prove that).

Furthermore, in 2014 the FA issued a reminder that the flag across the chest signal should not be used, as shown below:



The missive then goes on to give the same procedure as the current one.

 

[cwyeary]

In the US, the protocol without comms is to have the AR move towards the corner flag if they think it's a PK and to move towards the halfway line if they think it's a FK.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

In the US, the protocol without comms is to have the AR move towards the corner flag if they think it's a PK and to move towards the halfway line if they think it's a FK.

Similar in England; when training new referees and promotion candidates we suggest the AR maintains eye contact with the referee whilst signalling the offence, then after the referee whistles the AR should move two paces to the right to confirm "penalty" or two paces left to indicate "outside" (unless the match referee says otherwise in the pre-match)
As Peter Grove has said, the flag across the chest was only used in the UK and was discontinued 8 years ago.

 

[Anubis]

Similar in England; when training new referees and promotion candidates we suggest the AR maintains eye contact with the referee whilst signalling the offence, then after the referee whistles the AR should move two paces to the right to confirm "penalty" or two paces left to indicate "outside" (unless the match referee says otherwise in the pre-match)
As Peter Grove has said, the flag across the chest was only used in the UK and was discontinued 8 years ago.

Correction. England

Flag across chest has never been used in Scotland,

 

[es1]

Correction. England

Flag across chest has never been used in Scotland,

i dont think it was ever used anywhere but england!

 

[Anubis]

i dont think it was ever used anywhere but england!

It maybe appeared alongside that wavy hand thing when lino telling folk the flagged person came back from an offside position,

absolutely needless, the offside person is flagged offside regardless of how he got there.

if someone feels need to shout " came back from an offside position" great, all for communication but flappy hands like a clock pendulum, no thanks

 

[JamesL]

Similar in England; when training new referees and promotion candidates we suggest the AR maintains eye contact with the referee whilst signalling the offence, then after the referee whistles the AR should move two paces to the right to confirm "penalty" or two paces left to indicate "outside" (unless the match referee says otherwise in the pre-match)
As Peter Grove has said, the flag across the chest was only used in the UK and was discontinued 8 years ago.

The AR should crab towards the corner flag, no set number of steps they should. Indicate foul and crab all the way at least until the referee has acknowledged the signal.
Or take two (I ask for exaggerated) steps to the left to indicate outside.
The problem I see with the method as is written is if the referee decides no pen, then AR is potentially out of position but 2 steps could easily be missed and leave the R with impression AR doesn't know and R takes the decision.