RefSix

Spurs Utd

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
I have no doubts he has passed the fitness test on multiple occasions. PGMOL, the Premier League, and the FA obviously aren’t going to risk major trouble sending someone out there who hasn’t passed the fitness test.

It just always seems like Moss struggles to keep up with speed of play at that level. You look at guys like Oliver, Taylor, Pawson, Dean, etc. Whether or not you agree with the decision, far more often than not they are keeping up with play and in decent position to sell their calls. Moss just doesn’t seem to be where he needs to be on some important calls, and last night was a prime example of that.

By all accounts, he seems to be a top-notch guy. I just don’t know if he’s able to properly deal with the speed of the game at the Premier League level.

this. Been that way since day 1. I fear only his age prevented fa putting him forward for fifa
These elite full time refs are, or should be, athletes.
To be panting away like a puppy 2 mins in, is not a good look
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
I think if a cautionable offence is identified in an 'allowable' review then it can be communicated to the referee and caution issued.
This is different to the fact that VAR can not review for a cautionable offence.
This. See below.
IMG_20200621_113621.png
 
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zarathustra

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
this. Been that way since day 1. I fear only his age prevented fa putting him forward for fifa
These elite full time refs are, or should be, athletes.
To be panting away like a puppy 2 mins in, is not a good look
And yet he continues to pass the fitness test, otherwise he wouldn't be refereeing in the Premier League.

The real question should be whether the fitness test used by PGMOL is good enough to make sure that referees are fit enough to keep up with the modern game.

And also whether referees are doing what they should be in order to maintain and/or improve their fitness.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
And yet he continues to pass the fitness test, otherwise he wouldn't be refereeing in the Premier League.

The real question should be whether the fitness test used by PGMOL is good enough to make sure that referees are fit enough to keep up with the modern game.

And also whether referees are doing what they should be in order to maintain and/or improve their fitness.

Exactly this, he had, three months break there, and, as he ageing like us all, the demands become tougher so, he needs to get tougher
I could understand if he even had an ability like, Wiley or Dowd, cant expect everyone to be pristine athletes but really, to be 20 yards from play with ball in box in last min at 1-1, either he struggling with awareness, or, more likely, he simply cannot keep up with the play


true story, 2002, i passed the fitness test.....with two broken metatarsals.
does this mean I would have been on a game the next night?
Cos afterall, I passed the test....

these guys are full time paid athletes, with all the best medical help, training, and everything laid on
If am his age and class myself as very fit ( formerly super fit), then, expectation wise you look for a wee bit more from the elite
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
How about this for the idea of a fitness test for an elite referee:
  • 2 X 45 minutes (15 minute rest in between) - 6km each combination of walking, jogging and sprints.
  • 3 minutes rest and then
  • 2 X 15 minutes (1 minute rest in between) - 2km each as above
Distances for walks and jugs vary between 10 and 70 meters. Sprints vary between 10 and 50 meters. All runs are timed. Yes it's a little complex but so is refereeing the modern game at top level and a lot of money is involved.
 

RefIADad

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
How about this for the idea of a fitness test for an elite referee:
  • 2 X 45 minutes (15 minute rest in between) - 6km each combination of walking, jogging and sprints.
  • 3 minutes rest and then
  • 2 X 15 minutes (1 minute rest in between) - 2km each as above
Distances for walks and jugs vary between 10 and 70 meters. Sprints vary between 10 and 50 meters. All runs are timed. Yes it's a little complex but so is refereeing the modern game at top level and a lot of money is involved.
In my opinion, the elites should have a more rigorous test than us “normal folk”. I get that one consideration for a fitness test is the ability to administer it. We may have that problem in our world, but groups like PGMOL, PRO in the US, etc. have staffs who can administer for the elite group.

I do think the test idea in the quoted post is a good idea. I have an alternate idea below.

I’d have to put some times to them, but I think a fitness test like the match replication session Anthony Taylor mentioned in the link below would be a better test.


I’d probably tweak it like:
  • Reduce the test to three rounds, but wouldn’t be against keeping it at four rounds.
  • Instead of doing a 2K run for each round, do something like 2000m/1600m/1200m
  • Instead of 10m/30m/40m sprints, I’d look at 20m/40m/60m sprints
  • One of the sprint rounds has longer shuttles instead of sprint/walks. So instead of 4 20m sprints, 4 40m spirits, etc., I’d make one of the three rounds 2 or 3 shuttles of 20m/40m/60m .
I’m not trying to just hammer Moss here. There are other officials where I’ve wondered about their fitness for the elite level. If some of these officials are passing the fitness test but still not showing it on field, then perhaps the fitness test needs to be tougher.
 
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Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
From personal experience I have also seen with my own eyes, frequently, some refs strangely passing the test....


when erm, they did not.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
In my opinion, the elites should have a more rigorous test than us “normal folk”. I get that one consideration for a fitness test is the ability to administer it. We may have that problem in our world, but groups like PGMOL, PRO in the US, etc. have staffs who can administer for the elite group.

I do think the test idea in the quoted post is a good idea. I have an alternate idea below.

I’d have to put some times to them, but I think a fitness test like the match replication session Anthony Taylor mentioned in the link below would be a better test.


I’d probably tweak it like:
  • Reduce the test to three rounds, but wouldn’t be against keeping it at four rounds.
  • Instead of doing a 2K run for each round, do something like 2000m/1600m/1200m
  • Instead of 10m/30m/40m sprints, I’d look at 20m/40m/60m sprints
  • One of the sprint rounds has longer shuttles instead of sprint/walks. So instead of 4 20m sprints, 4 40m spirits, etc., I’d make one of the three rounds 2 or 3 shuttles of 20m/40m/60m .
I’m not trying to just hammer Moss here. There are other officials where I’ve wondered about their fitness for the elite level. If some of these officials are passing the fitness test but still not showing it on field, then perhaps the fitness test needs to be tougher.
I don't think the current FIFA fitness test is easy. It passes you on a different level of fitness that is required in a game. Whether it's your fitness test or mine, it has to replicate a match situation when the referee has to simulate keeping up with play at an elite level for a full game plus extra time.

No point proving you can do 6 40m sprints in 5 or so minutes and then do 4k in 12 minutes (or whatever it is) while in a real match you are putting in 10-12km over 90 minutes and have to do sprints right from the start until the end at various lengths. It's like needing a top half marathon athlete but picking a top 1500m athletes.
 
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RefIADad

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
I don't think the current FIFA fitness test is easy. It passes you on a different level of fitness that is required in a game. Whether it's your fitness test or mine, it has to replicate a match situation when the referee has to simulate keeping up with play at an elite level for a full game plus extra time.

No point proving you can do 6 40m sprints in 5 or so minutes and then do 4k in 12 minutes (or whatever it is) while in a real match you are putting in 10-12km over 90 minutes and have to do sprints right from the start until the end at various lengths. It's like needing a top half marathon athlete but picking a top 1500m athletes.
Very fair point. The current fitness test isn't easy, but it also isn't long. 40 reps of 15/18 second runs/walks is 1,320 seconds, or 22 minutes. Add the six sprints with recovery added, and that's 28 minutes of activity. That's not even close to a 45-minute half. I would have to think that the absolute minimum time for a fitness test should be 45-50 minutes. At least that's one half, and you get anywhere from 5-15 minutes to recover.

I'd say that a fitness test for elite referees should probably be in the 60 minute range. That's longer than a 45 minute half. I'm good with a test shorter than 90 minutes, if nothing else because you do have a halftime to rest and recover.

Just as a point of reference, when I've done the Premier League match replication sessions with three reps plus warm up and cooldown, I've timed somewhere around 1 hour and 5 minutes.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Very fair point. The current fitness test isn't easy, but it also isn't long. 40 reps of 15/18 second runs/walks is 1,320 seconds, or 22 minutes. Add the six sprints with recovery added, and that's 28 minutes of activity. That's not even close to a 45-minute half. I would have to think that the absolute minimum time for a fitness test should be 45-50 minutes. At least that's one half, and you get anywhere from 5-15 minutes to recover.

I'd say that a fitness test for elite referees should probably be in the 60 minute range. That's longer than a 45 minute half. I'm good with a test shorter than 90 minutes, if nothing else because you do have a halftime to rest and recover.

Just as a point of reference, when I've done the Premier League match replication sessions with three reps plus warm up and cooldown, I've timed somewhere around 1 hour and 5 minutes.
I am curious as to know why you think the fitness test for a 90 game should be 60 minutes. Not trying to argue but just to know your line of thoughts. For me, the best indication on how fit a referee is for an actual match is a 2 X 45min (+2 X 15min) fitness test. Anything shorter would give the best indication of how fit a referee is for a shortened (and maybe faster pace) game but not best for a 90 minute game.

The only negative I can think of is that finding the time for preparation and running the test due to it's length. But you need to consider a few things:
  • This length test is for elite referees only most of whom are professional referees doing it full time.
  • The referee has to do the actual test only once maybe twice a year.
  • Training (sessions) for it don't have to be as long. For example, a marathon runner doesn't run a marathon every time they train for a race.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
Moss must be fit enough (according to testing criteria), he's just not good enough
There are others who could take his place, but SG1 is a closed shop... near enough anyway
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Moss must be fit enough (according to testing criteria), he's just not good enough
There are others who could take his place, but SG1 is a closed shop... near enough anyway
I'm not sure that is the case. Plenty refs starting to come through, Kav is now established and Banks has had 1 or 2 this year.I think we will see Rob Jones,. Andy Madley, Oliver Langford, and a couple of other breaking through in the coming seasons.
There are a few that will probably move on, I think Dean's beard and posing in his Tranmere shirt says this is likely his swansong season, if not probably only one more. Mason, Marriner, Moss are getting towards the end of their careers too.
Point is, if Moss was not good enough, or considered good enough by his superiors, despite what you or I think, then he wouldn't get the games and there are plenty of promising talent waiting to step in from SG2.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
I'm not sure that is the case. Plenty refs starting to come through, Kav is now established and Banks has had 1 or 2 this year.I think we will see Rob Jones,. Andy Madley, Oliver Langford, and a couple of other breaking through in the coming seasons.
There are a few that will probably move on, I think Dean's beard and posing in his Tranmere shirt says this is likely his swansong season, if not probably only one more. Mason, Marriner, Moss are getting towards the end of their careers too.
Point is, if Moss was not good enough, or considered good enough by his superiors, despite what you or I think, then he wouldn't get the games and there are plenty of promising talent waiting to step in from SG2.
Fair enough... I consider myself corrected...
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not sure that is the case. Plenty refs starting to come through, Kav is now established and Banks has had 1 or 2 this year.I think we will see Rob Jones,. Andy Madley, Oliver Langford, and a couple of other breaking through in the coming seasons.
There are a few that will probably move on, I think Dean's beard and posing in his Tranmere shirt says this is likely his swansong season, if not probably only one more. Mason, Marriner, Moss are getting towards the end of their careers too.
Point is, if Moss was not good enough, or considered good enough by his superiors, despite what you or I think, then he wouldn't get the games and there are plenty of promising talent waiting to step in from SG2.
Agree, and when you consider that he has had some high profile games that would indicate his observer marks are high. Whereas the likes of Mason, Scott, Tierney, etc, never seem to get those bigger games so you have have to assume Moss is marked higher.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
Agree, and when you consider that he has had some high profile games that would indicate his observer marks are high. Whereas the likes of Mason, Scott, Tierney, etc, never seem to get those bigger games so you have have to assume Moss is marked higher.
i feel he is the one in any business or walk of life, whose face just fits
Any, and I mean, any game I have seen him, he has been no more than average

maybe should not post this, but, an ex Englishman from Sheffield who moved up here and ran an association years back knew him well and ' cant work out how he made it so far'

any walk of life has someone makes you scratch your head as to how they are where they are
 

Grayson

RefChat Addict
Doesn't ruffle any feathers, step on any toes, and does the job competently enough. Nice gig if you can get it.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
Doesn't ruffle any feathers, step on any toes, and does the job competently enough. Nice gig if you can get it.

just the two incorrect pen calls last time out and aa highlighted prev, ridiculous positioning and 20 yards from the big calls

if thats acceptable from the elite well..
 

RefIADad

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
I am curious as to know why you think the fitness test for a 90 game should be 60 minutes. Not trying to argue but just to know your line of thoughts. For me, the best indication on how fit a referee is for an actual match is a 2 X 45min (+2 X 15min) fitness test. Anything shorter would give the best indication of how fit a referee is for a shortened (and maybe faster pace) game but not best for a 90 minute game.

The only negative I can think of is that finding the time for preparation and running the test due to it's length. But you need to consider a few things:
  • This length test is for elite referees only most of whom are professional referees doing it full time.
  • The referee has to do the actual test only once maybe twice a year.
  • Training (sessions) for it don't have to be as long. For example, a marathon runner doesn't run a marathon every time they train for a race.
My line of reasoning was that since referees have 15 minutes to recover at halftime, I'd want a test that was longer than 45 minutes. I'm not firmly entrenched on the idea, and I can see your point about the 45-15 rest-45 type of test. Perhaps the test could be 45-15 rest-60 to also incorporate the possibility of extra time.

I'm not a sport scientist, so I don't have any data to say what the "optimal" single-session test length would be for a fitness test that would correlate well to a referee being able to handle the demands of a match of up to 120 minutes. What I do feel pretty confident in saying, as it appears you are as well, is that the current fitness test probably doesn't correlate that well to being able to run 9-11 miles in a 120-minute match with a mixture of jogs, longer hard runs, and sprints all as part of the mix. Everything I've been proposing has been to generate discussion, which I've appreciated you sharing ideas back and forth.
 
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