RefSix

Sin bins (again)

Nij

Active Member
#21
The 10 minutes is actual playing time. So as JH mentioned you can allow more time for delays.
This is not correct.

The time for the sin bin includes any stoppage time. It is not "actual playing time" and referees cannot extend the sin bin to make up for game delays.

Suppose player Red 10 is temporarily dismissed at 9:00.
At 11:00 1 minute is needed to find a replacement ball and at 16:00 2 minutes are needed to treat injury. The first half will be extended by 3 minutes.
Red 10 may be called back from their sin bin at 19:00. The referee should not delay the player's return until 22:00 to make up for the stoppages during the sin bin (indeed, must not do so, in law).

Suppose player Blue 6 is temporarily dismissed at 39:00 in the same first half. No further excess stoppages of play occur.
Blue 6 will serve 6 minutes during regular time and 3 minutes during additional time. They have served 9 minutes when halftime is called.
They must remain in the sin bin for a further 1 minute at the start of the second half, after which they may be called back.
Modifications to the Laws said:
The referee must include in the temporary dismissal period any time 'lost' for a stoppage for which [added time will be given]
See also here if comparison to other sport helps.
 
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#23
I'm sure my training said it was 10 minutes game time, so stoppages don't count towards the 10 minutes
I don't do sin bins, but . . .

In soccer, time does not stop for stoppages. The referee adds time to make up for lost time. So unless there is a specific provision for adding time to the sin bin if being added to the end of the half, I would not expect "stoppages" to have anything to do with the sin bin time--even though this could seem absurd if there was a 10 minute delay for a serious injury.

Edit: And when it doubt, look at the magic book and what it says:

1564521246562.png
Seems pretty clear that for which time will be added means that you add the same amount to the dismissal period as you intend to add to the end of the half. So there is the specific provision that makes it clear.
 
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Chrisp72

Always smiling
#24
This is not correct.

The time for the sin bin includes any stoppage time. It is not "actual playing time" and referees cannot extend the sin bin to make up for game delays.

Suppose player Red 10 is temporarily dismissed at 9:00.
At 11:00 1 minute is needed to find a replacement ball and at 16:00 2 minutes are needed to treat injury. The first half will be extended by 3 minutes.
Red 10 may be called back from their sin bin at 19:00. The referee should not delay the player's return until 22:00 to make up for the stoppages during the sin bin (indeed, must not do so, in law).

Suppose player Blue 6 is temporarily dismissed at 39:00 in the same first half. No further excess stoppages of play occur.
Blue 6 will serve 6 minutes during regular time and 3 minutes during additional time. They have served 9 minutes when halftime is called.
They must remain in the sin bin for a further 1 minute at the start of the second half, after which they may be called back.

See also here if comparison to other sport helps.
The referee will include any lost time in the sin bin period
 

Attachments

alexgr

RefChat Addict
#25
This is not correct.

The time for the sin bin includes any stoppage time. It is not "actual playing time" and referees cannot extend the sin bin to make up for game delays.

Suppose player Red 10 is temporarily dismissed at 9:00.
At 11:00 1 minute is needed to find a replacement ball and at 16:00 2 minutes are needed to treat injury. The first half will be extended by 3 minutes.
Red 10 may be called back from their sin bin at 19:00. The referee should not delay the player's return until 22:00 to make up for the stoppages during the sin bin (indeed, must not do so, in law).
Sorry, this is wrong. The sin bin lasts for 10 minutes of time played on the pitch, we were explicitly told this in our training sessions. Say they've served 9 minutes but there's a 5 minute injury. The player in the sin bin would come on a minute after play had restarted following the injury, rather than a minute into the time when the player was being treated and the game wasn't being played.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#26
I don't do sin bins, but . . .

In soccer, time does not stop for stoppages. The referee adds time to make up for lost time. So unless there is a specific provision for adding time to the sin bin if being added to the end of the half, I would not expect "stoppages" to have anything to do with the sin bin time--even though this could seem absurd if there was a 10 minute delay for a serious injury.

Edit: And when it doubt, look at the magic book and what it says:

View attachment 3606
Seems pretty clear that for which time will be added means that you add the same amount to the dismissal period as you intend to add to the end of the half. So there is the specific provision that makes it clear.
I didn't explain myself very well, but you know what I meant.

Of a player is in the sin bin for 5 minutes and then the only ball gets blasted into the next field and it takes 5 minutes to get it back they player in the sin bin still has 5 minutes left, as the ball has only been in play for 5 minutes.

All it means is that we, as referees, need to make sure we are ontop of keeping track of stoppages.
 
#27
I didn't explain myself very well, but you know what I meant.
Of course--but my original point was that unless the law specified "stoppage" would be added it wouldn't because "stoppage" isn't really right. And my edited point was that, yes, the law did specify--which was supporting what you said. (I was kinda surprised it was that clear in the actual Laws after a page and a half of back and forth with no one quoting it.)
 

Nij

Active Member
#28
Thats
Sorry, this is wrong. The sin bin lasts for 10 minutes of time played on the pitch, we were explicitly told this in our training sessions. Say they've served 9 minutes but there's a 5 minute injury. The player in the sin bin would come on a minute after play had restarted following the injury, rather than a minute into the time when the player was being treated and the game wasn't being played.
That's literally the exact opposite of what the LOTG says, as I quoted. Your advisor was wrong in law.
The temporary dismissal period includes any time 'lost' for which time will be added on.
If the ball gets sent into the paddocks next door and you take five minutes to get it back and are going to add that time on the end of the half, that time must be counted as part of the sin bin.
 

Nij

Active Member
#29
I don't do sin bins, but . . .

In soccer, time does not stop for stoppages. The referee adds time to make up for lost time. So unless there is a specific provision for adding time to the sin bin if being added to the end of the half, I would not expect "stoppages" to have anything to do with the sin bin time--even though this could seem absurd if there was a 10 minute delay for a serious injury.

Edit: And when it doubt, look at the magic book and what it says:

View attachment 3606
Seems pretty clear that for which time will be added means that you add the same amount to the dismissal period as you intend to add to the end of the half. So there is the specific provision that makes it clear.
The statement is clearly the opposite of your conclusion: the dismissal period includes the time lost. If I lose five minutes due to an injury, that time is counted in the dismissal period. See the examples in post #21.
 

one

RefChat Addict
#30
Yet again poor wording in the LOTG has lead to an unnecessary debate.

Common sense would say what the LOTG means is to add any time lost to the the period of TD. LOTG has misused the words "include in" in place of "add to". Someone may want to clarify this with IFFAB.

Otherwise teams can exploit the system. Say the star striker is binned in the 80th minute with the team 0-1 down. From 81st minute there will be consecutive apparent severe injuries which will take several minutes each to manage (unless the referee is a doctor nothing he/she can do). This results in 2 minutes play time but 10 minutes lapsed time making effective bin time only 2 minutes.
 
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Nij

Active Member
#31
Yet again poor wording in the LOTG has lead to an unnecessary debate.

Common sense would say what the LOTG means is to add any time lost to the the period of TD. LOTG has misused the words "include in" in place of "add to". Someone may want to clarify this with IFFAB.
Given that those two things are diametrically opposed, it makes far more sense that they wrote exactly what they meant.

Common sense would tell me that IFAB doesn't want referees trying to work out how much stoppage time has affected each separate sin bin, and the easiest way to manage this is "count 10 minutes, then bring them back" in the same way that rugby does.

Otherwise teams can exploit the system. Say the star striker is binned in the 80th minute with the team 0-1 down. From 81st minute there will be consecutive apparent severe injuries which will take several minutes each to manage (unless the referee is a doctor nothing he/she can do). This results in 2 minutes play time but 10 minutes lapsed time making effective bin time only 2 minutes.
If the referee believes teams are faking injury to reduce the effective impact of the sin bin, they can be penalised for it - "attempts to deceive the refereee e.g. by feigning injury" is the first thing listed under examples of USB.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#32
Given that those two things are diametrically opposed, it makes far more sense that they wrote exactly what they meant.

Common sense would tell me that IFAB doesn't want referees trying to work out how much stoppage time has affected each separate sin bin, and the easiest way to manage this is "count 10 minutes, then bring them back" in the same way that rugby does.


If the referee believes teams are faking injury to reduce the effective impact of the sin bin, they can be penalised for it - "attempts to deceive the refereee e.g. by feigning injury" is the first thing listed under examples of USB.
If there is a delay, that you intend to add on the end of the half then the sin bin is extended.
Using the term playing time is incorrect as not all stoppages are counted towards additional time.
Think, if after play has restarted the next challenge results in a broken leg, that takes 25 minutes to get play restarted, are you going to allow the player straight back on. No he is going to sit out the next 9m45 seconds until he has served a full 10 minute temporary dismissal.
 

Nij

Active Member
#34
If there is a delay, that you intend to add on the end of the half then the sin bin is extended.
Again: this is exactly opposed to what the LOTG say. The time lost, if it will be added on, must be included in the temporary dismissal time.
Think, if after play has restarted the next challenge results in a broken leg, that takes 25 minutes to get play restarted, are you going to allow the player straight back on. No he is going to sit out the next 9m45 seconds until he has served a full 10 minute temporary dismissal.
I'm going to adhere to the word and apparent spirit of the law, and the player is going to be allowed back when they have served ten minutes, whether it's 10 played on the field or 10 waiting for a stretcher.
If the writers of the law wanted the temporary dismissal period to be extended, they would have said so. Instead they wrote that the temporary dismissal period includes the time lost. I'm still boggled that anybody can read the words and think it was meant to be the opposite.
@Nij , rightly or wrongly, your opinion on this topic is diametrically opposed to the training / guidance that is right now being given up and down England in advance of the new season.
Bearing in mind it's the same England whose highest league has said they'll pretty much ignore some of the requirements of the VAR protocol, because they fundamentally disagree with how VAR works, even though they're still going to use it...
And the kind of scenario that @JamesL pus forward above is why 10 minutes of actual playing time is also the fairest approach.
Would you make one team use fewer players because it wasn't fair that the opposition could only find eight? Let halftime be 25 minutes because it wasn't fair for one team to be less fit and need a longer break? Give only a free kick because it isn't fair that the same offence is penalised differently based on being a few centimetres further on the line? Award a goal because it was going in anyway and it isn't fair to call the attacker's handball?

It is not fair at all to use the extreme situation to justify a wrong interpretation, and even worse to use a rare scenario in applying that interpretation to the majority of cases where it is effectively irrelevant. We may disagree with those laws and think them unfair, but they are still LOTG, and they have to be applied as-is.
 
#35
@Nij, if you're not in England then crack on and enforce Sin Bins exactly as you wish. If, however, you are in England, then please don't make life harder for all the rest of us (including players who will get confused) by going "rogue" on us :)

Incidentally, if you're basing your total premise on the phrase "The referee should include in the temporary dismissal period any time ‘lost’ for a stoppage for which ‘additional time’ will be allowed at the end of the half (e.g. substitution, injury etc...) " then I'd read that completely opposite to the way you are ..... but appreciate it's open to interpretation
 
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Brian Hamilton

I am the storm
Observer/Tutor
#36
@Nij, if you're not in England then crack on and enforce Sin Bins exactly as you wish. If, however, you are in England, then please don't make life harder for all the rest of us (including players who will get confused) by going "rogue" on us :)

Incidentally, if you're basing your total premise on the phrase "The referee should include in the temporary dismissal period any time ‘lost’ for a stoppage for which ‘additional time’ will be allowed at the end of the half (e.g. substitution, injury etc...) " then I'd read that in the completely opposite to the way you are ..... but appreciate it's open to interpretation
I've attended 7 sessions regarding sin bins now (delivering the training on 4 of them mind) and have had confirmation from the Referees Department at The FA that it is 10 minutes of playing time. So if you have to wait a minute for a ball to be retrieved from a river or 2 minutes for treatment of an injury, then this time is to be added to the 10 minute sin bin period.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#37
because they fundamentally disagree with how VAR works
This is false. You must be confusing 'they' with 'Big Cat'
I don't think the PGMOL implementation of VAR is relevant to this discussion, especially as we can only speculate on how they'll do it
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#39
Anyone from England in any doubt about the FA expectation of time management:
  • Referee includes any lost time. If the referee stops their watch during any player's 10-minute period in the sin bin, the referee will stop his watch to include any lost time.
 

alexgr

RefChat Addict
#40
Anyone from England in any doubt about the FA expectation of time management:
  • Referee includes any lost time. If the referee stops their watch during any player's 10-minute period in the sin bin, the referee will stop his watch to include any lost time.
God that's possibly the clunkiest sentence you'll ever see but I agree, the intention is clear.
 
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